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Witness for the Prosecution at Second Trial of John D. Lee
September 14 to 20, 1876

About This Record


Sworn for the prosecution.

Q: Where did you live in 1857?

A: I lived at a place called Fort Johnson, Iron County.

Q: What was your business?

A: I was living with my father - farmer.

Q: Were you an Indian interpreter?

A: Yes, sir; I could talk some with the Indians at that time.

Q: Were you at the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

 Q: How old were you at that time?

A: I was in my nineteenth year.

Q: Did you kill anybody, or help to kill anybody there?

A: No, sir, I did not.

Q: Tell this court and jury all you know about that?

A: I was called on Thursday of the week they were killed. They were killed the next day.

Q: Where were you?

A: I was on my father's farm, finishing up my har­vesting.

Q: What occurred?

A: There was a young man by the name of Clewes - his name has been mentioned here. I am not certain about its being Clewes, it may have been young Klingensmith, came down with a note from Isaac C. Haight, that I was wanted in Cedar City. I went to Cedar City, and he told me some men were going out to the Mountain Meadows and that I must accompany them, and I did so.

Q: What did he tell you they were going there for?

A: He didn't tell me. I understood they were going out to bring in the dead, slain by the Indians.

Q: Would you have gone if you had had any other understanding?

A: No, not if I could have helped it.

Q: Did you go there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What time did you get there?

A: I should judge between twelve and one o'clock in the night. I got to Hamblin's ranch at that time.

Q: Who did you see there?

A: I saw John D. Lee and Klingensmith, and a man by the name of Western. I did not see those men until morning.

Q: Was Hamblin at home?

A: No, sir; he was not.

Q: Did you learn that he had gone any where?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you have any conversation with Lee about his having been in a fight with the emigrants?

A: No, sir; I didn't have any conversation with him in relation to it.

Q: Did you hear him say anything about it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What did you hear him say?

A: In speaking to the Indians, he referred to having been in a fight with the emigrants.

Q: What did he say?

A: He said that the Indians and himself had made an attack on the emigrants and been repulsed.

Q: What else did he say? Did he say anything about running any narrow risks?

A: No, sir; he did not.

Q: Did he show any place where his clothing was shot?

A: There was a bullet hole which I noticed in his shirt, which the Indians told me was received down at the camp in that attack.

Q: Anything about his hat?

A: I didn't notice anything about his hat.

Q: Did you notice anything about paint on him?

A: After mature reflection, I don't think I did; I have the impression that I noticed something of that kind around his hair.

Q: Did he say when the attack was made?

A: He told me (those were a few Indians he was telling) there were three Indians there that had been wounded, and I was conversing with them after I got in, in the night.

Q: Were you acquainted with the Indians - the Pah Vant Indians?

A: Yes, sir; somewhat acquainted.

Q: Were you acquainted with the Indians below?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What was Lee's position at that time with the Indians?

A: Well, he used to farm for them, help them to farm.

Q: What was his influence over them?

A: His influence was good.

Q: Were any of the Pah Vent Indians down there?

A: I didn't see any.

Q: You are now at Hamblin's ranch, Friday morning. State what took place that day on the ground.

A: I got on my horse in the morning.

Q: Why did you do it?

A: John D. Lee told me to, and Klingensmith told me to go with them down to the camp. The main Indian camp was down below the emigrant train, and I got on my horse and rode down with them in the morning. There were some men camped down on the mead­ows, down near the Indian camp. There a few men there, and a few arrived while I was there. They were talking around. I didn't know what was said. A man went out near to the emigrant camp, and there was a white flag - a flag of truce on a stick sent down to the emigrant camp.

Q: Who sent it down?

A: It was John D. Lee had the management of the concern, if I understand it right - well, I will say that he did.

Q: Follow that flag of truce, what occurred?

A: It went down to the emi­grant camp, and two men came out and met it and returned back again, and John D. Lee and another man went down to meet with the two that came out of the camp.

Q: Did they talk?

A: They spoke there a while, I could not hear what was said.

Q: Did they appear to be in conversation?

A: Yes, sir; and finally they returned, and some wagons were sent for to go down to the camp and take out some clothing and guns, and some few wounded.

Q: Who directed those wagons to go?

A: Well, sir, it was Klingensmith or John D. Lee, they seemed to be engineering the thing.

Q: Did John D. Lee go down to the emigrant camp?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many people were loaded into those wagons, and who were those people?

A: I can't tell you. Just as they went down I was where the men were. I had ridden down and tied my horse to a root on the hill; he got loose and I went for him, as the wagons went down to the emigrant camp, just as the wagons started away from the camp.

Q: How many wagons started from the camp?

A: Two.

Q: What position did you occupy?

A: I had not got back with my horse.

Q: Were you on the hill - on a prominence?

A: I was not over 800 yards from the people, where the people were passing along; the emigrants following the wagons.

Q: How many wagons?

A: Two.

Q: Were these people in those wagons?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see Lee there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What position did he occupy when you saw him?

A: Following between the wagons.

Q: Which way were they going?

A: North, towards Hamblin's ranch.

Q: Did you see the emigrants following the wagons out of their camp.

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Were they armed or unarmed?

A: Not armed.

Q: How far behind the wagons?

A: The women and children along with the wagons, the men a little behind.

Q: Do you mean along in the trail behind the wagons?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And the men behind all?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many of them?

A: I should judge about twenty-five or thirty men.

Q: How many women?

A: Probably there were not so many women as men.

Q: You don't pretend to give the number?

A: No, sir.

Q: How far from the wagons at the head of the column were the people that were walking?

A: The wagons got a good deal ahead.

Q: Were the people marching in double or single file?

A: I could not tell you. The women and children were following along promiscuously, and some of the men.

Q: Were you where you could see the wagons plain and see Lee?

A: Yes, SIr.

Q: Were you armed?

A: I had a pistol.

Q: Did you shoot it off at all?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you have anything to do, in any way, shape or manner with that massacre?

A: No, sir.

Q: Will you tell the jury what you saw done at those wagons, and the order in which you saw it?

A: When the wagons got up a piece ahead of the men I heard a gun fired.

Q: Where was it?

A: I think it was behind. I am not sure it was behind the wagons. I turned round to look, and at that the Indians and whites made a rush, and there was a general firing.

Q: Where was that gun fired off?

A: I think the gun fired was some distance behind the wagons.

Q: What took place then?

A: The people were killed.

Q: Did you see any of them killed?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see John D. Lee kill any of them?

A. I saw him fire off, and saw a woman fall as I looked down to the wagons.

Q: What wagon was it?

A: I am not certain. I think it was the lead wagon.

Q: Tell what occurred?

A: I saw his gun fired, heard the report of the gun and saw it fired, and saw a person fall, and the gun was held in his hand

Q: Did it kill her?

A: I didn't go to see. The Indians rushed.

Q: What did you see him do next?

A: I looked down below to the men that were below, and then when I looked back again -

Q: Was the massacre going on then down lower?

A: Yes, sir, Indians and all along the line. I saw John D. Lee and some Indians pulling some per­sons out of the wagons.

Q: What did you see him do to anybody else?

A: I can't swear, but from the motions I should say he cut a man's throat.

Q: Tell how he did it?

A: I can't tell you, only I saw his arms moving around pulling men out of the wagons. They went to the left of him. I was not near enough to see, but he seemed to hold on to him.

Q: Who pulled him out of the wagon?

A: John D. Lee and an Indian.

Q: Did you see John D. Lee make any motions?

A: I did.

Q: What were they?

A: I thought at the time that he was cutting a man's throat, but then I was so far off.

Q: You were in plain sight?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Have you any doubt that to what he did there?

A: No, sir.

Q: What else did you see him do?

A: I didn't see him do anything else at the time.

Q: At any other time?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you see him do anything else towards killing those people?

A: No, sir.

Q: How long a time did it occupy, that massacre?

A: Not over five minutes - not over three minutes.

Q: How many people were killed, do you know?

A: No, sir, I don't.

Q: Did you have any conversation with John D. Lee after that about it?

A: I have had at different times, but I don't know that I can recollect the conversation that passed.

Q: Did you ever have a conversation with him in which he told you the particulars of the first attack?

A: He told me once something in relation to it, but it is so long ago. It was only that he attacked them; that the attack was made just as daylight was appearing in the morning. He said he went with the Indians to make the attack.

Q: Did he give you any reasons for making the attack?

A: No, sir.

Q: How many cattle were there belonging to that train?

A: That I cannot tell. There was quite a number - quite a lot of stock.

Q: How many wagons did those emigrants have?

A: Thirteen I counted.

Q: Do you know what was done with the cattle?

A: Taken to Iron Springs.

Q: Who took them around there?

A: I don't know who took them there- some men took them there.

Q: Do you know of Lee having and using any of the wagons afterwards?

A: I saw some of the wagons at Harmony several weeks afterwards.

Q: What did you say became of the cattle?

A: Taken to Iron Springs.

Q: By whom?

A: I understood by John D. Lee's orders.

Q: Do you know what was done with the cattle?

A: I saw some of the cat­tle afterwards on the Harmony range close to Lee's residence.

Q: There under his charge?

A: I suppose so. I am not definite about that.

Q: Do you know whether any of them were killed by Lee?

A: No, sir. Never saw him kill any of them; he told me once that he had given the Indians several beeves, and the Indians told me he had.

Q: How long had you been acquainted with the Indians in Southern Utah at the time of the massacre?

A: I had been somewhat acquainted with them for five years. I came to Iron County in the Spring of '51 and resided there until '57.

Q: Were your relations with the Indians intimate?

A: With some portions of them they were.

Q: Do you know at that date, the time of this massacre, what the rela­tions were existing between the people of Southern Utah and the Indians; whether they were hostile or whether they were friendly?

A: They were friendly.

Q: State whether they were in good subjection or not?

Bishop objected to the introduction of this testimony by this witness.

First, because the proper foundation had not been laid to show that this witness knew how far the Indians had been placed under subjection. Second, because the prosecution had introduced written evidence, doc­uments written by Brigham Young and John D. Lee, to show the exact condition of the Indians at that time, and before that. Third, they seek to prove that the Indians were friendly to the people of Utah; that is irrel­evant and immaterial here, from this fact, that there is no question now before the court or jury as to whether the Indians of Utah were friendly with the citizens of Utah or not. It is not claimed by either the prosecu­tion or the defense, that the Indians had made any attack at that time, or that they afterwards made any attack on the citizens of Utah. The only question on trial is as to the fate of certain people, nonresidents of Utah, and the fact as to whether this defendant was connected with their tak­ing off or not.

After argument the question was withdrawn.

Q: What was the influence of John D. Lee over the Indians of Southern Utah, those that were there present at, the massacre?

Objected to until it is shown that this party knows what that influence was.

Question withdrawn.

 Q: Do you know the relations existing between John D. Lee and those Indians?

A: The relations between John D. Lee and those Indians, a small portion of Indians that roved around in there, were good; but the Indians further south, I don't know. The Indians of Santa Clara, and further on, I did not know.

 Q: Had you any information, before you went there, from John D. Lee's Indians, that he had control of, that he had promised to go there?

A: I had information from Indians that went there.

Q: How long was that before you went?

A: It was on Monday evening, before the massacre on Friday.

Q: What was that information?

Objected to. Question withdrawn.

Cross examined –

Q: How old were you at the time of the massacre?

A: I was in my twentieth year.

Q: Where were you at the time Mr. Haight ordered you to go the Mountain Meadows?

A: I was at Cedar City.

Q: What time in the day was that?

A: It was some time in the afternoon of Thursday.

Q: The day before the massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many men went with you to Cedar City?

A: Two went with me to Cedar City.

Q: Who were they?

A: Klingensmith's son, and I can't recollect who the other was, came down to tell me I was wanted there. A man by the name of Charles Hopkins, and Charles Western, went with me to the Meadows. I went on horseback, and John Western went with the wag­ons. There were no others went at that time. There were others before, I understood.

Q: How many did you find there when you got there, citizens of Cedar City and the surrounding country?

A: I can't tell you the number.

Q: How many, ten, fifteen or twenty?

A: I should judge ten or fifteen.

Q: Is it not a fact that there were more than twenty five or thirty men, white men - there, that you saw on the ground?

A: There might have been.

Q: Wasn't there that number?

A: I could not tell you.

Q: Why can't you tell me?

A: Because I didn't count them. I was not there long enough to ascertain the number of men that were there.

Q: Where did you go that night when you went on the ground?

A: I went to Hamblin's ranch. Got there about twelve or one o'clock - not far from midnight - and lay down there till morning.

Q: What time did you get to the Meadows next morning?

A: It was some time in the forepart of the day.

Q: Did you go to the camp where the citizens were located?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: About how many men did you find there?

A: There were some in two places. I found some eight or ten at the place I went.

Q: Did you go to the other place?

A: I didn't go there.

Q: Then how do you know men were there?

A: I saw them. How far off? Some were in sight.

Q: Were they within half a mile of you?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Were there any Indians on the Meadows after you got there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Where were the Indians with reference to the white men?

A: The Indians camped some distance from the whites.

Q: Were the Indians out of their camp and up at that of the whites?

A: Several came up while I was there.

 Q: Then after they came up to see you they staid up there around where the white men were?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What men were at the camp where you stopped?

A: Well, sir, I didn't stop at the camp. I stayed there a few minutes and talked to Mr. Bateman.

Q: Who did you see there?

A: Mr. Bateman, Charles Hopkins and Klingensmith, where I was talking.

Q: Where is Bateman?

A: Dead.

Q: Where is Hopkins?

A: I understand he is dead.

Q: Do you refer to the same Klingensmith that was a witness at the last trial?

A: He was the man that was Bishop at Cedar City.

Q: Where is Western?

A: I can't tell you. I don't know whether he is dead or alive.

Q: Did you see Isaac C. Haight?

A: Not when I first went to the camp.

Q: You saw him around at the Meadows?

A: Yes, sir, I saw him at the Meadows.

Q: Did you see a man by the name of Stewart?

A: I don't recollect.

Q: Did you see Higbee?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Wilden?

A: I don't recollect.

Q: Did you see old man Young?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many others did you see?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: You stayed there a few minutes and then went to get your horse; where was it you heard the conversation between John D. Lee and the Indians?

A: It was at the camp at Hamblin's ranch.

Q: Give that entire conversation that passed between John D. Lee and the Indians?

A: I can't.

Q: Start in and give from the first to the last of it as well as you can?

 A: I don't know as I can, sir.

Q: What language did John D. Lee talk in to the Indians?

A: He had an Indian boy as interpreter.

Q: Who was that Indian interpreter?

A: It was the Indian boy called Alma, I think, that he would talk with and then have the Indian interpret it to the Indians.

Q: Then he talked English and the boy interpreted to the Indians?

A: I sup­pose so.

Q: You understood both languages. Do you remember whether the Indian interpreted and told the Indian what Lee said, or not?

A: I didn't hear him tell the boy anything about the attack.

Q: Didn't you testify that you had a talk with Lee, and that you heard him talk with the Indians, and say that he had attacked the emigrants?

A: No, sir, I said the Indians told me so. Yes, sir; I did. Lee was talking when I went to the camp, and he did say so.

Q: Tell me whether he talked English or Indian?

 A: He talked English to me and told me so.

Q: Give me that conversation?

A: He told me they attacked the camp on Monday night, and been repulsed.

Q: What else?

A: I can't be expected to remember all the conversation twenty years ago.

Q: I want all that you do know. Do you know any more about it? Can you recollect anything more that he said?

A: Nothing that I recollect.

Q: Did he give you any reason for attacking the emigrants?

 A: No, sir.

Q: Did you find any fault with him for attacking them? Was anything said about whether it was right or wrong?

 A: No, sir; I was a boy; I didn't consider it my business to talk to my superior officers in regard to such things.

Q: How was that about Lee being your superior officer?

A: I say I was a boy and didn't consider I had a right to talk to a man in his position in such matters.

Q: Did he have any control over you?

A: No.

Q: What right had he to control your actions?

No answer.

 Q: What position did he hold that gave him the right to direct your movements?

A: I was sent there.

Q: You have spoken of his being your superior officer. Tell me what position John D. Lee held that enabled him to control your actions?

A: They called him Major Lee, and I was sent by Major Haight to go to the Mountain Meadows, to Major Lee.

Q: That is the reason you considered that you had nothing to do with it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did Haight tell you what you were to do there?

A: No, sir.

Q: He simply told you to go to the Mountain Meadows?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What do you mean by your evidence, when you were asked by Mr. Howard a question, and you answered that you would not have gone to the Meadows if you had known what was to be done?

A: That is, not if I could help it.

Q: State whether you were under any compulsion?

A: I didn't consider it was safe for me to object.

Q: Explain what you mean, that is what I want. Where was the danger ­who was the danger to come from if you objected - from Haight or those around him - from the Indians, or from the emigrants?

A: From the mili­tary officers.

Q: Where?

A: At Cedar City.

Q: Was Haight one of those military officers?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who was the highest military officer in Cedar City at that time?

A: I think it was Isaac C. Haight.

Q: You thought it would not be safe for you to refuse, had you any rea­sons to fear danger - had any persons ever been injured for not obeying, or anything of that kind?

A: I don't want to answer.

Q: It is necessary to the safety of the man I am defending, and I there­fore insist upon an answer. Had any person ever been injured for not obeying?

A: Yes, sir; they had.

Q: And from what you had seen before that, you thought it was your duty, under the circumstances, to obey counsel, or commands given you by Haight?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did Haight hold any office except that of Major in the military?

A: He held the office of President of Cedar City.

Q: An ecclesiastical office - President of that Stake of Zion, I believe you call it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Tell me how old Haight was then?

A: I can't.

Q: A man full grown, I presume?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: After you had caught your horse, how far were you from the wagons at the time you heard the first firing?

A: Well, I was not over 300 yards, and perhaps not more than 250.

Q: What was the nature of the ground?

A:  I was on higher ground; if you have ever been to the Mountain Meadows, it gradually descends down from the mountains to the meadows.

Q: You were on the upland - above the wagons?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Between you and those parties were there any trees or shrubbery, or anything of that kind?

A: There were some to my left - kind of behind me.

Q: You were at the left of the column?

A: To the right of the column.

Q: Then to your left, in between you and the wagons, there was nothing to obstruct your vision whatever?

A: Not between me and the wagons.

Q: At that time could you see down to the meadows to where the prin­cipal part of the emigrants were killed?

A: I could see the head of the col­umn of the emigrants. The lower part of the column was hid by this oak bush that is there.

Q: Did you see any Indians there at the time you heard this first shot, or soon afterwards?

A: Yes, sir, soon afterwards.

Q: You stopped your horse at the time you heard the first shot and paid particular attention to what was going on?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: You continued there inactive until the whole thing was over?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: You say you saw John D. Lee there. Did you not see Samuel McMurdy, one of the drivers, there also?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What did he do?

A: He was holding his horses all the time. I did not see him let go of them.

Q: Do you know whether he took part in the killing, or not?

A: No, sir, I don't. I can't say.

Q: What was Sam Knight doing?

A: Sam Knight, when I looked around, was out on the ground holding his horses.

Q: How long did they stand there and hold their horses?

A: Not long. The killing did not last over five minutes.

Q: What did they do when they let go of their horses?

A: I saw the wagons going off. There was another white man there along with the Indians, but who he was I do not know. I can't tell. I never inquired to find out.

Q: It was none of your business?

A: No, sir.

Q: And you just let the matter pass? But you did see John D. Lee killing emigrants, but you don't know who else killed any?

A: No, sir.

Q: You have not tried to find out since, have you?

A: No, sir, I have not.

Q: You have talked this over a great many times since, and heard it talked over, I suppose?

A: No, sir, but very little.

Q: You have had people ask you about the facts and circumstances fre­quently?

A: Yes, sir, but it is something that I have avoided.

Q: Is this the first time, since you arrived in Beaver City, that you have talked this thing all over, except when talking to the attorneys for pros­ecution?

No answer.

Q: From your silence I see you wish to avoid talking to me, too. You have never talked this over to anyone?

A: No, sir.

Q: Until you came to Beaver?

A: I might have done so. I can't recollect.

Q: How many of the military did you see drawn up in line there on the field of the Mountain Meadows, about the time the wagons drove off?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Quite a number, were there not?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who was commanding that military body drawn up in line there?

A: I can't tell which it was, Klingensmith or John M. Higbee.

Q: They were both there?

A: Yes, sir, I think so.

Q: Is it not the fact that these men were drawn up in military line - stand­ing there with arms in their hands - within two hundred yards of the emigrant camp?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Did you see them march in?

A: I saw them marching, as I told you; when I got my horse and turned back I saw them marching.

Q: I understood you to say that it was the emigrants that you saw march­ing after the wagons. Did you see the militia from Cedar City marching too, at the same time?

A: There were men coming all along all together. I can't tell you whether they were militia or emigrants. All were march­ing along together.

Q: About what time did the emigrants come out of the camp?

A: It was some time in the afternoon, I think.

Q: How long had you been there at the Mountain Meadows, before the massacre took place?

A: Well, I went from Hamblin's ranch in the morn­ing; I hadn't been there a great while.


Q: Where were you born?

A: I was born in the State of Ohio. How old were you when you arrived in Utah? I was some twelve

years of age.

Q: Came I suppose with your parents, to Utah Territory?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Resided In Utah ever since?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Reside now at Johnson's Fort, the same place you did at that time?

A: No, sir.

Q: Where do you live now? Shall I answer that question?

A: Yes, sir, I live at Kanab.

Q: How long have you lived there?

A: About four months.

Q: Where had you been living before that, since you lived at Fort Johnson? After the massacre how long did you live at Fort Johnson?

A: I moved into the Rio Virgin in the fall of '58.

Q: How long did you remain there?

A: Well, I can count up in a minute - I lived there ten or twelve years.

Q: Then where did you move to?

A: I moved to the Sevier.

Q: And from there to Kanab, where you live now?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: You say you saw a lot of the wagons at Harmony afterward?

A: I will not swear to but one.

Q: Did you ever see any of the wagons at any other place - did you not see some of them at Cedar City?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Where were they in Cedar City?

A: They were at Klingensmith's.

Q: How many did you see?

A: Two.

Q: What position did Klingensmith occupy at that time?

A: He was Bishop of Cedar City Ward.

Q: You spoke of seeing some cattle on the Harmony range. Did you ever see any of those cattle on any other range?

A: They were running about Harmony and Kanab.

Q: Who had possession or control of them?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Do you know how they were branded after that?

A: No, sir.

Q: How did you recognize them?

A: I recognized them by the brand that was on them of "S."

Q: Did you notice that they were branded with a "B" the first time you saw them?

A: Yes, and they were a different kind of stock; they were Texas cattle, a good many of them Texas cattle with long broad horns. There were none in the country that I ever saw until I saw those.

Q: Go on again and tell us just exactly what you saw John D. Lee do; tell me all that you saw him do. I want you to make it just as full and bad as you can.

A: I have told you what I saw.

Q: Tell it to me again.

A: I told you that I saw him fire a gun, and saw a per­son fall.

Q: Go on and give it all just as you saw it; the whole thing.

A: And then after that I saw him and the Indians pulling people out of the wagons.

Q: What else?

A: That is what I told you before.

Q: I cannot help that, I am now asking you to tell what you know.

A: That is what I did see.

Q: Is that all you saw?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: You know the parties had their throats cut, I suppose?

A: No, sir.

Q: You went down and looked at the bodies afterwards?

A: No, sir, I did not; I did not want to.

Q: Then it is only a supposition, that the parties' throats were cut?

A: That is all.

Q: Did you ever go back to see if those persons were dead or not?

A: No, sir, I did not; I saw them lying there after the wagons had driven away.

Q: Do you know whether they were dead or not, of your own knowl­edge?

A: No, sir, I do not. I saw persons lying on the ground dead, back below where the troops were.

Q: How far from you?

A: I went to them.

Q: Then you did go back? Were they men that Lee killed, or were they men, killed by Klingensmith's men, where he and Higbee were? T

A: They were down where Klingensmith and Higbee were.

Q: Then you did go down to that place?

A: Yes, sir; John D. Lee sent me down to the wagons, that were down below, to keep the Indians from taking the things out of the wagons.

Q: How did he get you there?

A: He told me to go, and I went.

Q: Did you ride down to him after this killing was over?

A: I went over to where Klingensmith was and Lee came down; he sent me down there to the wagons.

Q: What did he say when he told you to go back?

A: He told me that he wanted me to go down to the wagons of the emigrants and keep the Indians from taking the things out.

Q: How long did you stay there?

A: I stayed there till John D. Lee and Isaac Haight came down.

Q: Are you certain that Lee came back?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Don't you know as a matter of fact that Lee went on to Hamblin's ranch?

A: I stayed there at the wagons until after he came back from Hamblin's ranch.

Q: How long did you stay there?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Did you sleep there in the field that night with White, Klingensmith and others?

A: I think likely I did. I stayed there until John D. Lee and Isaac C. Haight came down.

Q: Don't you know you stayed there that night, and until the wagons were moved away?

A: I think I did.

Q: Don't you know that you did?

A: Yes, sir, I do.

Q: Who took those wagons away - who ordered the hitching up of the oxen and taking away of the wagons?

A: I don't know.

Q: Was it Klingensmith?

A: No, sir; he did not.

Q: Did John D. Lee?

A: No, sir. I don't know.

Q: Didn't you help drive the stock?

A: I went with them around to the Iron Springs.

Q: Who helped take the wagons down there - can't you give me the names of a few of them?

Witness refused to answer.

Q: How many whites did you see on the Mountain Meadows, at the time of the massacre?

A: I did not count them.

Q: About how many?

A: There was a considerable number, as many as forty or fifty.

Q: How far were they from where you kept watch at the wagons?

A: About half a mile.

Q: Half a mile from the emigrants' wagons?

A: Yes, sir; about that far.

Q: Who kept watch with you that night at the emigrant camp, to keep the Indians from stealing?

A:  I don't want to bring in new names.

Q: I see you do not - except Lee's - how is that?

A: I have mentioned a good many names.

Q: You have been sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; and I want you to tell me the names of those men.

A: Well, a man named Ure was with me.

Q: What was his fall name?

A: John Ure.

Q: How old was he?

A: I can't tell.

Q: Was he a man grown?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Is he living or dead?

A: He is alive.

Q: How long was it after you went there to keep the Indians from steal­ing that these other parties came to you?

A: I don't recollect of any com­ing until John D. Lee and Isaac C. Haight came.

Q: Next day?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you succeed in keeping the Indians from stealing there?

A: They had taken a good deal before I went there. After I went they didn't.

Q: You had considerable control over the Indians when you got there. They knew you, and you could talk their language, and when you told them to do anything they would do it?

A: Some of them would, and some wouldn't.

Q: They all agreed to quit stealing, didn't they?

A: No, sir.

Q: How did you keep them from stealing, then?

A: I didn't.

Q: What did they steal after you got there?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Did they steal anything - you know whether they did or not?

A: The Indians were at the wagons when I arrived and had taken out a good deal of stuff.

Q: What did they do after you arrived?

A: They took off what they wanted.

Q: Did they stop stealing when you told them to?

A: Not altogether.

Q: What did they take away?

A: Bedding and blankets.

Q: Isn't it a fact that they took just what they wanted, and that you did not stop them from stealing?

A: I did stop some of them.

Q: Well, didn't they carry off all they wanted?

A: They didn't carry it all away, but they did a good part of it.

Q: How many did you keep from stealing?

A: Five or six.

Q: How many Indians were there that you could not stop; how many were there around the wagons?

A: There was quite a lot that went away with their goods.

Q: Fifty, seventy five, or one hundred?

A: Not that many.

Q: How many did you see that day altogether?

A: There was a great num­ber - over a hundred - there was a great number of them took horses and started off.

Q: Where did they get the horses?

A: From around that section of country.

Q: Emigrants' horses, I suppose?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: About how many horses did the emigrants have there?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Didn't you see the herd?

A: I saw the Indians with horses that they said they got there, but I did not see the herd of stock until it was started to the Iron Springs. I only came there the night before.

Q: Did you do anything toward burying the dead after the massacre?

A: No, sir.

Q: Then you did not help do that?

A: No, sir.

Q: Were you there at the time it was being done?

A: I saw men there work­ing at it from where I was at the camp. They commenced burying the dead right off.

Q: The same evening of the massacre?

A: Well, sir, I can't tell you.

Q: You cannot tell whether it was the same night or the next morning?

A: I cannot.

Q: What number of men went from there to the Iron Springs with you?

A: There were some ten or twelve went along. I went on afterward. I had my horse. I rode my horse.

Q: Give me the names of as many as you can that went with you from the Meadows to the Iron Springs the day afterward.

A: I can't. I don't know as I can give the names.

Q: If you say you cannot give the names, I will not press it.

A: Well, I say I cannot.

Q: You say you cannot recollect any of the names of those who helped drive the stock?

A: No, sir, I can't.

Q: Who had charge of property as it was driven to the springs?

A: That I cannot tell.

Q: What was Klingensmith doing there?

A: I don't know. I don't recollect seeing him along.

Q: When did you last see Higbee there on the field? Did you see him after the massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see him the day after the massacre?

A: I can't tell whether I did or not.

Q: Were you present at any council that was held there on the field pre­vious to the massacre, and hear any agreement as to the killing of the emigrants or anything of that sort?

A: No, sir, I didn't.

Q: You did not hear that anybody was to be killed until you heard the shooting?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: When?

A: When I started after my horse I heard that the people were to be killed.

Q: Who told you?

A: John D. Lee told me.

Q: I thought you said he had left you?

A: He talked of it before he went to the camp.

Q: Just before that, then?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: I wish to get at all this, because I want you to tell everything that John D. Lee did. Tell me what he said to you about it?

A: He was talking to the men about getting the men out of their fortification.

Q: Was this after the flag of truce had been sent?

A: No, sir, before that.

Q: Who was Lee talking to?

A: Klingensmith, Higbee and others.

Q: Who were the others?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: How many others?

A: There was quite a lot of men.

Q: Thirty or forty?

A: I should judge there were.

Q: Did you hear Higbee say anything?

A: Higbee may have talked.

Q: Did any person make any objection to the killing of the emigrants?

A: It is a thing, sir, that I don't like to answer.

Q: I wish you to answer my question. Did any man or men, person or persons, there on the ground, make an objection to the killing of all the emigrants?

A: Yes, sir, a good many objected. But they didn't dare to say anything.

Q: How do you know they objected?

A: They dare not speak about it to those men.

Q: Did they speak up at the Council and make objections?

A: I was not at the Council.

Q: Did anyone of that thirty or forty men raise a voice against the killing of the emigrants, at the Council, on the field, or in the presence of Lee, Higbee or Klingensmith, or anyone else?

 A: No, sir, they did not.

Q: What did John D. Lee say about it in the presence of Haight and Higbee?

A: He said we must get them out of there.

Q: Who was he talking to then?

A: Higbee and the others.

Q: Were they talking the matter over?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Tell me what was said?

A: I can't recollect.

Q: Do you recollect what Haight said?

A: Haight was not there.

Q: Then how was it that Lee was talking to Haight and Higbee if Haight was not there?

A: It was Higbee and Klingensmith he was talking to.

Q: What was it that Klingensmith said about killing the emigrants?

A: I can't tell.

Q: Then you cannot recollect what anyone said or did except John D. Lee?

A: No, because John D. Lee was the most conspicuous man in the whole thing.

Q: Klingensmith, the Bishop of the Church at Cedar City, Haight and Higbee, as Majors in the militia, all stood back and gave John D. Lee full control, did they?

A: He had control of everything on the field. He acted like a man that had control.

Q: Did he not have control?

A: I can't say.

Q: Did you not think at the time that John D. Lee had full control of everything and of every person there?

A: He acted like it.

Q: What do you believe about it?

A: No answer.

Q: Haight ordered you to go there?

A: Yes, and when I got there I went to Lee; that was the instruction.

Q: And you stayed by him and obeyed all of his orders?

A: No, sir, he want­ed me to talk to the Indians in a way I didn't want to.

Q: Tell me how he wanted you to talk to the Indians?

A: He wanted me to tell them that they would get the emigrants out some way, so they could get their guns and horses.

Q: You refused to tell the Indians that, did you?

A: Well, I talked to them some.

Q: Did you tell them that or not?

A: I don't wish to answer that.


You need not tell anything to incriminate yourself.


Q: Can you tell me anything besides that, that you heard John Lee say?

A: No, sir, I cannot. That is all I recollect.

Q: What time of day was that, when Lee said, "We must get them out some way?

A: It was in the fore-part of the day.

Q: Who was in hearing distance when Lee said that?

A: I decline to answer.


Q: You don't decline because it would incriminate you, do you?

A: No, sir.

Q: Then you cannot decline.


Q: Tell me who was present, and heard that statement of Lee's?

A: I can't tell - there was a lot of them there.

Q: After you arrived at Iron Springs, did you and those with you talk the matter over and agree to keep it a secret?

A: The matter was talked over at the camp, and again at the Springs, about keeping it a secret, but I can't tell what the agreement was that was come to.

Q: Was the subject talked over as to whether it should be talked over afterwards or not?

A: I don't recollect.

Q: After that did you talk it over with those who were engaged in the affair with you, in which conversation you learned it was best to keep silent concerning the whole thing?

A: It was talked of that way - that it was best to keep still.

Q: What reasons were given, why it was best to keep still?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Do you know what the reasons were, or do you decline to answer? Is it because you forget, or why can't you tell me?

A: It was because they did­n't want it to be known - those men who were in it; the leaders in it didn't want it to get out.

Q: I asked you whether you ever had any conversation with anyone in regard to it?

A:  I can't tell you whether I had or not.  Of course such a thing as that men would talk about. That's what the matter now. It has been talked about and can't lie still.

Q: Did you ever have a conversation with Haight about this massacre since it occurred?

A: Not that I know of.

Q: Did you ever have a conversation with Stewart?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you ever have one with Higbee about keeping it still?

A: Not that I know of.

Q: Did you ever talk with Allen, Klingensmith or any other party that was there, about keeping it still?

A: I tell you I don't recollect having a conversation about keeping it still. Such a thing was talked about, but I don't now recollect talking about it.

Q: Did you hear either of those men talk about it, about keeping it secret?

A: No answer.

Q: Is it not a fact that after the property was all gathered up at the Meadows, and you were ready to start for Iron Springs, that speeches were made to the men present, by those in authority, in which speeches you were ordered to keep it a secret forever?

A: There were a great many speeches made.

Q: At the Meadows, before you left there, was it not told you in a speech then made to you, that it must be kept secret; that it would be best to keep silent? Were you not so advised by your leaders?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who gave that advice? Who ordered you to keep silent?

 A: Klingensmith and Haight gave the advice.


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