Join The MMA


Contact Us

About Us


July 23 - 24, 1875
About This Record


Prosecution: Where did you reside in 1857?

Witness: At Cedar City.

Q: How long had you previously resided there?

A: I believe from '52 - '51 or '52.

Q: Do you know where the Mountain Meadows are located?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Describe to the jury where the Mountain Meadows are located.


A: Located about 45 miles (between that and 50) from Cedar City on the old California Road.


Q: In what county?


A: Now, in Washington County. Then, in Iron.


Q: In what territory?


A: In Utah Territory.

Q: Are you acquainted with John D. Lee?

A:  I am.

Q: Were you acquainted with him in 1857?


A: At what time?


Q: In 1857.


A: Yes, sir. I was there at the massacre.


Q: I want you to state to the jury what you know in relation to the massacre­ and about what time it was.


A: As near as I can recollect, it was in September. I can't tell you the day or the date. I think it was toward the last-probably about the middle.

Q: That year was it?

A: It was in '57.

Q: Won't you relate to the jury the circumstances, as you know them, in relation to the massacre of which you speak. Just commence in your own way and relate the circumstances.


A: The first that I know of the company coming in?

Q: Yes, sir,

Defense counsel: We suggest that a more limited question be put to the witness.

Prosecution: State what you know about it.

Defense: [He] can't give any testimony except about John D. Lee.


Prosecution: Go on and state the details.


Defense: If he goes on and narrates in his own way, we will have no chance to object until the objectionable matter has gone to the jury.


Prosecution: It is the first time in the progress of the trial that the defendant has attempted to direct the manner of the prosecution.

Judge-to the witness: Don't detail any hearsay matter.

Prosecution: Go on, and state what you know of that massacre, and who were engaged ill it, but don't state any hearsay testimony.

Witness: I will as far as I know. The first thing I shall mention is when I heard of this company coming from Salt Lake. I heard of the emigrants coming down here, and learned that the people were forbidden to trade with them; that there was a great deal of feeling some way or other, and it made me feel, to tell the truth, bad about it when I heard it. Finally the company came on to Cedar City and I happened to be down at the little town. There is about a mile difference between the two towns. I didn't at first see but a few of them three or four at the mill getting a grist down of some wheat they had bought from Mr. Jackson. I went on up home to the upper city. This was probably might have been Friday. I heard there was some disturbance through the emigrants swearing in town. And I heard that John M. Higbee had fined them.

Defense: We don’t want that hearsay.

Witness: However, let that go as it will, it don't make much difference here nor there. This, I think, was about Friday - if I remember it must have been about Friday, to the nearest of my recollection. This company went on from there, and I still heard rumors that I shall not say anything about, now. On Sunday, as was the usual custom of having meetings - and President and Council, High Council,

Bishop's Council- all the afternoon, and talking things and matters over. And directly when the Council met, this thing came up.

Q: I will ask you if you held any position, and if so, what?


A: I was not in any military order. I was a Bishop.


Defense: We object to the statement about the council. That is a matter between other parties. Unless the question is put in another form, we object to it.

Prosecution: We will connect it.

Judge: They propose to connect the question with it.

Defense: This is not a charge of combination [conspiracy]: John D. Lee is charged with murder, not with combining with anybody. If Mr. Lee was not there, it is incompetent. It is your duty to connect him with it. Unless you can show that John D. Lee was one of that Council, the statement of the proceeding of that Council is incompetent.


Judge: Either party can commence either at the beginning or middle or end of their testimony. It is a rule I have been used to for many years, and I think it is the best rule. They promised to connect the defendant with this. If they don’t, the Court will have to strike it out.

Defense: Your Honor will please note our exception to that ruling, until it appears that John D. Lee was a member of that Council, or was present.

Prosecution: Go on and state what took place at that Council.

Witness: This question of those emigrants, and their destruction, came before us at that time; and there was ...

Q: Of whom was that Council composed?

A: Haight, Higbee, myself - I could not tell all the names of them; Morill was there, Ira Allen, and Wesley Willis I think was there.

 Q: What is Haight's full name?

A: His first name is Isaac C. Haight.

Q: What occurred?

A: This thing was talked over.

Defense: We object to that question. Now, it appears affirmatively that John D. Lee was not there; and he is not connecting him with it.

Judge: On the same ground that they have promised to connect, they may do it by some other witness.

Defense: Exception.

Prosecution: Go on and state what happened there.

Witness: This question came up and there was some of the brethren opposed to such a proposition - and when it came to my turn, I opposed it. There were others that were opposed to it, too. Haight jumped up and broke up the meeting, and went outdoors. Then a proposition was made there. The question I asked them was this: what would be the consequences provided such a thing should take place.

Q: What did they propose to do?

A: They didn't propose to do anything particular when this thing was talked about.

Q: What was said?

A: I have stated all that I can remember.

Q: What was the substance of what was said?

A: It was their - the substance was for their destruction, and I opposed it.

Q: For their destruction by whom?

A: Their destruction was proposed by the Indians. I cannot say positively that the whites were going to do it from there. Then the meeting broke up, and on Monday morning, down below the old fort wall there was several of us met together, again.

Q: Who?

A: Isaac C. Haight, Higbee, myself, Joel White, and I don't recollect anyone else. The talk came up again about these emigrants coming. There they were not yet at Cedar. I got onto the same subject again, and opposed it, and asked questions about it, and said for my part I would like to see these people go through unmolested. Haight then replied, "you may go with Mr. White over to Pinto Creek with a letter and tell the people there that these people shall [be allowed to] go through, and try and pacify the Indians - for that people to go through." That is all.

Q: Did you go over there?

A: I did. I went over there. I started in the afternoon.

Q: Who accompanied you?

 A: Joel White went with me. We started in the afternoon, and met John D. Lee down at the lower end of the field. Probably two and a half miles from town. Lee asked, "Where are you going?" White replied, "We are going to see that these people go through unmolested." He [Lee] said, "I have something to say in that matter, and I will see to it." We made no reply. We went on. He went to Cedar. I knew not anything more of him till afterwards.

Q: Was that all he said at the time?

A: It was all he said at that time. Now, then, I went out that evening and got there in the night-past these emi­grant's company at Iron Springs, five mile outside of Pinto Creek. And the next morning as they were drawing out from camp, we passed back and went on our way together back to Cedar.

Q: How many of the emigrants were there?


A: I never counted them. There was a good many.

Q: Of what class?

A: I should suppose the train composed of twenty or thirty wagons.

Q: About how many people?

A: I could not tell you.

Q: Approximate.

A: It appears as though there was a hundred or more.

Q: How was it with reference to sex and age?


A: There was old men, middle aged men, old women, young women and children.

Q: After you passed them, state what occurred.

A: I came on towards home and met a man named Ira Allen, beyond where we met Lee about four miles. That was the day following. We didn't know what was up, and Ira Allen stated right out...

Defense: Objection.

Prosecution: We will connect Mr. Allen as one of the conspirators in this affair.

Judge: Go ahead, the objection is overturned.


Defense: Note our exception.

Q: Go on, state what occurred.

A: He said that the doom of the emigrants that went out there was sealed, that the die was cast, the doom fixed for their destruction, that John D. Lee had orders from headquarters at Parowan to take men - go around below and go out. He had orders to go to Pinto Creek and countermand what I and Mr. White had been to Pinto Creek and tried to do.

Q: What else was done, then?

A: I know nothing more about it. I went home. White lived in the lower town, and I went up to my place pretty fatigued from riding. I don't know anything more about what was going on. Only about rumors, until about three days afterwards. Then Haight, living over at the iron works in a little house, sent down McFarlane there to me, to come over there. I went over behind his house. He there told me this story.

Defense: We object to anything Mr. Haight may have told this witness.

Judge: Overruled.

Defense: Defendants take exception.

Witness: He told me there was orders came in from camp last night.  Says he, "They hadn't got along as they anticipated, and the news came in to me for reinforcements, and I immediately went over to Parowan and there got further orders what to do."

Q: Did he say who gave these orders?


A: Yes, sir. I will say, by and by. He said he came home in the night with these orders from Co!. Dame that in order to finish the massacre they was to decoy them out and to spare nothing but the small children that could not tell the tale. That is what he told me. I went down to the old town then directly. He told me to go down there, and I happened to come right in front of Ira Allen's house. There, John M. Higbee, Ira Allen, and Charlie Hopkins were right in front of his dooryard. And as I stepped up, John Higbee says, "You are ordered out armed, and equipped as the law directs, to go to the Mountain Meadows." And so I went.


Defense: If you’re Honor please, this is another party that the witness has brought in, and makes statements of John M. Higbee that are not connected with Mr. Lee.


Judge: I will overrule the objections on the same grounds as before.


Defense: Exception.

Witness: I went and fitted up, got my animal and gun and ammunition and went out.

Q: Who went with you?

A: Charlie Hopkins went out with me, and John M. Higbee, and I think possibly that John Willis went with a wagon and Sam McMurdy with a baggage wagon.

Q: Where did you go to?


A: We started - the rest I cannot remember. We started over there, and when we got to Hamblin's ranch in the night-sometime in the night - I don't exactly recollect ...

Q: Jacob Hamblin's?

A: Yes, sir. The ranch was about three miles this side of where the emigrants were camped. Well, there was Lee and some others - not a great many from the camp, where the general camp was, passed up further, by a. spring. When this party that had gone out from Cedar, they composed quite a little number of men. Then we began to find out that they [the emigrants] was not all killed, as it was represented, while there was a few more ...

Defense: We object to the statement of individuals.

Prosecution: Who do you mean by some?

A: Those that I mentioned. I can mention some names that was there. There was John D. Lee, John M. Higbee, myself - there was Hopkins, Ira Allen, and there was another man, died since, Wiley. I don't recollect anybody else. Lee called us out to one side ...

Q: Was George Adair there?


A:  I don't think he was, I cannot say.


Q: Was William C. Stewart?

Defense: Objected to as leading.

Witness: They were not at this place. What I was going to refer to ...


Q: Go on and explain to the jury what place you refer to.


A: He called us out, these names, a little to one side and we had a consultation about the instructions that carne through Higbee to him from Col. Dame at Parowan.

Q: A little to one side of what?

A: Of the ranch.

Q: You speak of a branch of the brethren?

A: They might have been ten or fifteen rods from the rest, up in the mouth of the little wash; there Lee stated the circumstances of the situation - and that the emigrant train ...

Q: Relate what he stated, as near as you can remember.

A: He stated they had strong fortifications; that there was no possible chance to get them out that he knew of. Then Higbee, having orders, says, "Orders is from me to you that they are to be decoyed out and disarmed, got out in any manner the best way you can." There it was agreed upon and the command was given to John D. Lee to carry out the whole scheme. I suppose before that Higbee had the authority, but I found out it belonged to Lee.

Q: What was done then?

A: We went back, and the orders was to go up to the springs where the Indians and these southern soldiers were camped. At the spring, a way off, this side of the ground.

Q: What do you mean by these soldiers?

A: White men - southern [Utah] soldiers - those that came from Washington County and around, so far as I know. Directly after we got up there, Lee called them into a hollow square and there talked to them - to the soldiers that were there; but I don't remember all that were there.

Q: How, and of whom, was that hollow square formed?

A: It was formed of white men, but I could not give the names of the persons, with the exception of a few.

Q: About how many in number?

A: I should judge there was fifty, so far as I recollect.

Q: Was there any Indians in that hollow square?

A: There wasn't in that hollow square. The Indians were off somewhere else.

Q: Give the names of as many persons in that square, of that soldiers, as you can remember - composing that soldier.

A: I could not remember all of their names. I recollect some I noticed there. There was Mr. Slade. I was not in the square. I went off from what I was telling you, just to tell something I wanted.

Q: You can go back to that.

A: I noticed there Slade and I think his son; and I think Jim Pearce and brother, and his sons, but I would not be positive. But he recognized me. I'd done business with him.

Q: Can you remember any others?

A: I remember those I have mentioned before, from Cedar, and some other ones was there.

Q: Was George Adair there?

A: I could not say positively that he was or was not - only by rumor.

Q: Was William Stewart there?

A: Mr. Stewart was there.

Q: State as many others, if you remember others.

A: There was Swen Jacobs, was up there.

Q: Was John Willis there?

A: He was down at the Hamblin ranch, but whether he was out there or not I could not say.

Q: Was Dan McFarlane there?

A: I would not be positive whether he was on the ground or not; it seems to run in my mind that he was, but I would not be positive. We stepped to one side out of the hollow square - that was myself and old man Slade - we stepped to one side up above the hollow square and talked the matter over, and the horrible thing that we were about to enter into. He had some feelings, and I had, that ran contrary to our natural feelings. Says I, "What can we do, how can we help ourselves?" Says he, "We can't." And directly, an order was given to march down, and we with the rest went along.

Q: How far from the hollow square was the immigrants?

A: Probably a mile and a quarter to a mile and a half. Don't think it's more than a mile and a half. There we were put into double file, by the orders that came. And John M. Higbee took command of that portion. With his other officers under him in that organization.

Q: Go on and state what kind of all organization it was.


A: It was an organization that was called the Nauvoo Legion that is organized from ten up to hundreds.


Q: Go on and state what was done.


A: There we halted, probably between a quarter and a half a mile this side of the encampment of these emigrants in sight. And someone went out with a flag of truce.


Q: Did you know who?


A: I could not tell you whether it was John D. Lee, or William Bateman; whoever it was, they came back after a communication with some man who came out and met them - came out from the emigrant encampment. John went down there, and that man and John D. Lee sat down and had a long talk with the man that came out of the emigrant camp to meet the flag of truce. It was two hundred yards, maybe a little more, from the camp in the va­ley. What he said to that man or to that people, I know not, only as I saw the plot carried out that came from Haight to him from Parowan - John M. Higbee to him.


Q: Then what occurred?


A: Lee went down with that man to the camp in their entrenchment. There a wagon came that was up there some time. I don't know how many hours before anyone came out.


Prosecution: May it please your Honor, this testimony is very important. I see that one of the jurors seems to be napping.

Judge: They are all wide awake.

Q: Go on from where you left off.


A: Well, after some time, after standing in the ranks there some time - well, probably, in all, three or four hours ­ Lee was down at their encampment and stayed there until he brought the emigrants out.


Q: How long was he there?


A:  I have just stated, three or four hours before he came out. After he came up, it was understood [according to the] command given from Higbee to us, that Lee got, [that was] put up in the start, in the morning, that wherever this company, women to be led ahead, after the first two baggage wagons, and the lame and the children were mostly in them. Women were led ahead. Those that had been wounded in the previous attacks, three days before, which I knew nothing about.

Q: Tell what occurred then.

Defense: Objected to for the same reason as before - that a witness cannot tell what he didn't see.

Judge: Motion overruled. Defense: Exception.

Prosecution: Did you hear Lee say anything about any previous attack?

Witness: Yes, sir. I heard him say that morning that they had been attacked and could not be routed.

Q: Attacked by whom?

A: By the Mormons who went out with the Indians.

Q: Well, go on from that point - where you were before - when Higbee was giving the orders.

A: Well, we were to march along a little ways with this people along side of us, and when the word "halt" came, we were to fire. Every man fired as far as I know. Whether I did or not, I can't tell.

Q: Describe the order.

A: The women walked behind the baggage wagons on the main road. They were ahead of all the company of men - the women was. After they came up from their encampment and passed us, a kind of halt took place there, and the women and baggage wagons went on ahead. And John D. Lee went ahead with them.

Q: The women, were they following after?

A: As far as I recollect, every one of them.

Q: Describe how they were. State how they were with reference to each other.

A: They were marching up ahead of the men, behind these wagons. They went on around toward the summit, where there is a bend. When I heard the word "fire!" I went up there and saw them laying along there.

Q: In what condition?

A: I found them in almost every condition; some with their throats cut, some heads smashed, some shot. That is the way it looked to me.

Q: Did you see any children there?

A: I didn't see any in the body of where they were massacred. I saw a young girl that was probably seven or eight years old-somebody killed her. I could not tell who killed her. I did not see it.

Q: You say somebody killed her.

A: I did.

Q: Do you know who it was?

A: No, it was a kind of dusk, and I did not see it.

Q: Where were the men of the train - the emigrants that were killed?

A: Behind, probably two or three hundred yards.

Q: How were they killed?

A: They were shot.

Q: By whom?

A: By those that shot them - this company that I have described.

Q: In what order did they march out?

A: I did I think-describe it when I spoke of the men that was massacred. In double file, as near as I can recollect. And probably, they were thrown into single file before the word was given, "fire!"

Q: By whom were they accompanied, or rather, marched out?

A: I could not recollect all these things; there was a kind of a dumbfustication in my mind. They were accompanied by Lee, at the head of the wagon. I don't remember anybody else.

Q: Do you know who gave the order to fire?

A: John M. Higbee gave the orders.

Q: Where was Lee when this firing was done?

A: With the women on ahead, when they were slaughtered.

Q: Had he any arms on his person?

A:  I presume he had.

Q: What is your remembrance of it?

A: I could not say at that time, because I could not hear him in action.

Q: Did you see any at all?

A: He carried his fire arms like any other man did.

Q: What sort of arms were the balance of these soldiers armed with?

A: They were armed with revolvers, United States Yaugers, and such guns as settlers generally have through this Territory. Some revolvers, yaugers, shot guns and so forth.

Q: State how many men were killed there?

A: I could not tell you positively.

Q: Well, about how many?

A: I suppose there were fifty. There might have been more, because I never counted them. I only know by hearsay afterwards, at different times.

Q: Do you know whether any escaped or not?

A: None got away as far as I recollect. None escaped from there.

Q: Did you see anyone of them attempting to escape?

A: I did. I saw some men on horses, for the purpose to take these in the wings that might run away - that might not have been killed - not fired upon by the first shot. I saw a man running across from the firing. I saw Bill Stewart going after him on a horse, and I suppose - I think as far as I can recollect that he shot him there, of course.

Defense: Objection to what the witness supposes.

Prosecution: State what was done about that time.

Witness: I was told to take charge of the children at that time.

Q: You saw the man, Stewart, going after a man?

A: I think I saw the man fall. It must be so, in my mind, because he didn't go far.

Q:  What else?

A: I didn't see any other man. I saw Ira Allen on the left wing on horseback, and that is all I remember of that.

Q: You spoke of some men being in the wagons. What was done with them?

A: When I got up to the wagons - I shall tell you now how I got there. I was told, after I had made a fire, to go and take charge of the little children - to gather them up and take charge of them.

Q: Let me call your attention, again, to the order in which the men marched out of corral. What position did the soldiers occupy to them as they marched out?

A: They didn't occupy any till the soldiers came up. That is where the soldiers were stationed.

Q: Describe to the jury; how the soldiers were stationed, and how the other men were marched up.

A: I will state again, as I have, they were marched up there in single or double file, behind the women and the baggage wagons, and came up to where we was in a bend - probably a quarter of a mile or so. I can't tell, exactly.

Q: How were you located?

A:  I was in the ranks with the balance.

Q: In single or double file?

A: I think we were in double file; I would not be positive. It appears to me so today. The emigrants came up, and the women and the baggage wagon a little ways ahead. We marched with them probably a hundred or two hundred yards on the right side of them. They came up on the left till they came to this place where they were killed, and the women was ahead a little ways.

Q: Please explain how that was.

A: We marched to the right side of them, while they kept to the left.

Q: Describe how each soldier was situated to some other man.

A: The soldiers were commanded to be ready at the word, "halt," at a minute's warning - with his gun across his arm, marching side by side with these emigrants.

Q: You say they were marching with their guns over their arms. Describe the thing from that time.

A: These emigrants they were protecting made some remarks of glad they was out. When the word, "halt," was given, that was the word to fire. And then they were killed.

Q: Did they all fall at the first shot?

A: No, sir. Some ran away.

Q: What was done with those that ran away?

A: The one I saw running, he was killed.

Q: Did the greater portion of them fall the first shot? How were they killed?

A: I didn't see but one man killed - and that man was wounded a little and was lying on the ground. And John M. Higbee went up to him and drew his knife and cut his throat. This man begged for his life, and he was lying on the ground when that was done.

Q: How far from the ranks was he when that was done?

A: Not more than a rod. He said, "Higbee, I wouldn't do this to you." He knew Higbee, it appears. And the reply was that, "You would have done the same to me, or just as bad." At that time, I went away. I will state here one thing further in that respect - that one large woman about that time came running down from the women and hollering for her husband and children, as I recollect, and some man on the left of me shot her in the back, and she fell dead and did not move. Who it was, I do not know. That was the only woman that I saw down there that was shot.

Q: After the killing was ended, what was done then?

A: There I was told by Higbee to take charge of the children and the baggage wagons.

Q: By whom?

A: By Higbee, my commander.

Q: What did you do?


A: I went up there and took charge of them. These men, they were killed and out of the wagons before I got there.

Q: Who killed them?

A: I know not, only by rumor.

Q: Won't you designate who you mean by "these men" - those men who were killed in the first attack in their fortifications?


A: These men that were with the baggage wagons.


Q: When the wagon passed your ranks, who was with them?


A: Lee was with them, and ahead of the man that drove the wagon.


Q: Was he in the wagon, or on the ground?


A: I do not know - could not say whether he was in the wagon or not.


Q: What occurred when you went up to take charge of the children?


A: When I went up there, I don't recollect seeing Lee. They had a team there. Me, Murdy and I think Sam Knight, from the Clara was up with their wagons and these children with some of the things was put into these wagons. And we went down to Hamblin's house. And that is the end of my knowing or seeing anything more there.


Q: Well, what were the soldiers doing there?


A: They dispersed - going south to Cedar and some to Hamblin's ranch. I don't recollect of seeing anybody else from the southern districts except Knight.


Q: Did you see John D. Lee after you started away with these children?


A: I did.


Q: Where?


A: I saw him there.


Q: Did you have any conversation with him?


A:  I did not have any conversation with him.


Q: What was he doing up to that time?


A:  I could not tell you, because I went immediately - went away and could not recognize any particular thing that he did.

Q: I want you to go on from that point and state what was done, and how these men were dispersed.

A: I don't know how they were dispersed; I left there as I told you, with the children and the wagons. I had my hands full. Some of the children were wounded and crying.

Q: Some of the children wounded? How many wounded?


A: I think one died at Hamblin's ranch. I think there was two died, but one died there.


Q: Where abouts were they wounded?


A: I think that it was wounded in the arm - a bad wound - and one somewhere else. I could not tell exactly, and I know I had to leave it.

Q: Of what was the emigrant train composed? What kind of train was it - mule train or ox train?

A: They had some mules. The majority were oxen - ox wagons. There were some mules and some horse teams.

Q: About how many wagons had they?


A:  I don't recollect. I could not tell you. I don't remember. I never was near enough to them to count them. I never saw them going away from the slaughter - know nothing about that. Consequently, I could not tell you how many there was.

Q: Do you know how many cattle they had?

A: I don't know how many cattle there were.

Q: About how many wagons? State as near as you can.

A: I stated, I think, between twenty-five and thirty, when I passed them at Iron Springs.

Q: When you passed them at Iron Springs, did you see the stock they had when you passed them there?

A: There was a part there, and a part out. They was hunting some stock, and I cannot recollect only the teams; they were hitched up, ready to move on.

Q: How many cattle had they?

A: I can't recollect. Only those teams that was hitched up, ready to move on. I could not see the cattle that was below, yet. They was away.

Q: After this massacre, did you ever see any stock that belonged to that train?


A: I did.

Q: Did you know what was done with them?

A: In part, I did; and in part I didn't know what was done with them.

Defense: We object to this as immaterial.

Judge: Objection overruled.

Defense: Exception.

Prosecution continues: What was done with these cattle?

A: As regards what was done with them cattle, I don't know.

Q: Do you know what was done with any of them?

A: I know some. I would like to tell you a little farther, right from Hamblin's.

Q: Go on then.

A: Well, the next morning I started with the children for Cedar City. I put them on Sam McMurdy's wagon and John Willis's wagon, and went on to Pinto Creek. And I think I left one little child there - one that was wounded; I left one or two there. Then I went home. I passed a train from San Bernardino. It was old Billy Matthews. I could not tell you who all was in from the fact that I didn't see them. We was off the road a little to the right, where there was water. They passed on while I was there. After they was gone, we went on to Cedar City. It was in the night before I got there. I had to stop there to get some water for the children. These men lived here in Beaver - most of them - these freight teams. Tanners, Matthews, and Shepherds, I think, and these old gentlemen, freighting at that time. I started on at that time, doing the best I could with the children - went on past them and got something to eat and drink, and went on and got to Cedar City in the night. I went to a place called Hopkins' Place. An old lady that was a midwife there - a motherly kind of woman who had midwifed around among the sisters there - I told her I had so many children got from that place. But I didn't tell her any particulars about it; though she perfectly well understood that, because her husband was in and out. She understood part of it, at least. There I stopped with these children and she rustled around and got places next day, and I think I took one home - I think I took one home or got it afterwards, I don't know which - a nice little baby girl, and my woman raised it - suckled it. And afterwards that child was give to Birkbeck at Cedar City because they had no children. It was a babe at the breast.

Q: Do you know what became of its mother?

A:  I do not. I never knew what became of its mother. I got them places around, of course. Every one good places -a s soon as possible - as soon as I could. But as a general thing they were well treated as far as I know. I made it my business to get these children places where there was not many children. In that way I disposed of them around in different places. Who all had them, I could not tell.

Q: After you got back to Cedar City, did you ever meet John D. Lee and have any conversation with him on the subject of what occurred?

A: I don't recollect meeting with him after that occurred there - not at that place.

Q: When did you first meet him after that?

A: I met him in Salt Lake after.

Q: Did you go to Salt Lake together?


A: No, sir, we didn't go to Salt Lake together.

Q: State what occurred, if anything, relative to this matter in Salt Lake City.

A: Previous to this - you may call it hearsay - I could say what I heard Haight say to John M. Higbee.

Q: State what Higbee and these parties you refer to said about this matter.

Defense: We abject to that as hearsay, as to John D. Lee, and he is the only party an trial.

A: At this point arguments were made on both sides.


Judge: Overruled.

Defense: Exception.

Defense: I will make a further objection to the question being answered, an the grounds that the indictment does not warrant an introduction of that character of testimony.

Judge: Overruled.

Defense: Exception.

Prosecution: Will you state now what conversation, after this massacre, you had with any of the parties. That is, you refer to Haight and Mr. Higbee, I believe - what conversation you had with them in relation to the disposition of the property belonging to that massacred train.


A: I would have to give a little further detail to come to that point.


Q: Be as brief as you can, and amid any outside matters.


A: Sometime after that - several days - Haight told me to go over to the Iron Springs that is about seven miles from Cedar City on the old emigrant road - that would be in the early days. He told me to go over there, that they had brought in wagons, cattle, and other things - goods and clothing and was at Iron Springs. And I should go over there and get that property and put them into the tithing office cellar. I accordingly, went. And I also was to brand the cattle that was there, which was probably fifty head. I went, and there I saw John Urie and George Hunter, and I think if I mistake not, other men were there who helped to get it there - and Ira Allen. But I would not be positive about that. However, these two men was there, with a number of wagons. I could not tell you now the number, but I presume the bigger part of them.


Q: Tell what you know.


A: I was there. Three men were engaged in it - picking it up at the place of the emigrant encampment. They took the wagons away, brought the cattle, and drawed them to that spring. I accordingly went under these order and brought it from there in the evening and put it in the tithing office cellar - all the tarps and clothing and such like that was among the company that got there from the place of the encampment at the Iron Springs. Hitched up some of the cattle - enough to draw these wagons over there. These wagons remained there around the tithing office and these goods remained there till afterwards, till a different disposition was made of them.

Q: What else was done? You stated a different disposition was made. State what that was.

A: After this occurred, I branded them with the Church brand.

Q: What sort of brand was that?

A: With the Church brand - a cross.

Q: State what else was done. You said there was another disposition made.

A: I will now go back to another disposition. I don't recollect of but once seeing Mr. Lee, and he was up there at Cedar City and was in that cellar with me, and saw these goods in the cellar. Afterwards, I had no more conversation with him that I recollect till he went to Salt Lake. I was told by Haight and Higbee that they held a Council, and counseled matters over. I was not present.

Defense: We object to witness detailing as to matters that he did not hear.

Judge: Objection overruled.

Defense: Exception.

Witness: And that to divulge and tell the circumstances and all about it was put upon John D. Lee.

Q: For what purpose?

A:  To tell him [Brigham Young] from first to last everything pertaining to that massacre. That is what was said. He went ahead. I don't know when he started, but he was ahead of me and Haight. We went down to the same Conference that fall. I suppose we started in the latter part of September.

Q: What year was that conference?

A: The same year that the Massacre was the sixth of October.

Q: Then it was the sixth of October following then that you were at Salt Lake City there to that conference?

A: Yes, sir. I was probably there a day or two before.

Q: Well, go on.

Defense: Objected to on the grounds that this matter is not charged in the indictment. There is no conspiracy charged with Brigham Young. This is entirely outside of the allegations and the indictment. It is immaterial and irrelevant.

Prosecution: This California case was the same.

Judge: Let me hear the case cited in the California report.

Prosecution: The question was really thus: that it was at the sixth of October conference of the same year that the Massacre occurred that you went to Salt Lake City. That was the question.

Judge: Objection overruled.

Defense: Exception.


Prosecution: Go on.

Witness: After I got to Salt Lake City, I met Mr. Lee. I think on the east side of the Temple wall, and we had some talk about it. I asked him whether he had delivered that message which he was to deliver to Brigham Young. He said he had, verbatim, everything that transpired. That is what he told me.

Q: What else?

A: Then, probably the same day, or it might be the day after, but I think it was the same day, I and Mr. Lee, and Charlie Hopkins went to see President Young, and he went with us in his barnyard to one place and another and showed us his fine things, and we came back into his house, and there in my presence and Mr. Lee's and Mr. Hopkins', he turned around to me, as I had possession of that property. After doing this, says he, "Dispose of that property, let John D. Lee take charge of it."

Q: Who said that?


A: Brigham Young said that.


Defense: We object to assertions of third parties.

Judge: Objection overruled.

Defense: Exception.

Witness: Next word was - he turned around to us and said, "What you know of this, say nothing about it: even don't talk among yourselves about it."

Q: Did you relate to him the circumstances?

A: I didn't tell him anything about it. He turned to Lee, as there had been this conversation, and it was the understanding.

Q: They had a conversation, had they, before that?

A: Yes, and Lee was to carry out the understanding.

Q: State, if you know what disposition was made of that property.

A: After we came home, I went - I went home I expect before Mr. Lee. I didn't see him anymore, that I recollect, for some time. After I got home, I was called on to go down to the Vegas, to the lead mines with some teams to get a load of ore, as I had been one of the discoverers of the Potosi mines in early days. And so, three teams of us went. While I was gone, Lee - I'm only telling this now as it was told to me, I know nothing about it only as t was told - there is other witnesses who will tell.

Q: Were you told by Higbee, or any of these persons?


A: I had a conversation with Higbee and Haight. It was turned over to him to take charge of it; and while I was gone they had an auction, and it was sold.


Q: Do you know what was done with the cattle?


A: I don't know; only those that went to Salt Lake. Haight had charge of them, and traded them to Mr. Hooper for boots and shoes, which went to Cedar City.


Q: Who? Which Mr. Hooper?


A: That man that was generally the Representative from Utah to Congress.


Q: How many cattle were disposed of in that way?


A: I presume forty or fifty head was sold.

Q: What was done with the stock of goods got by these cattle?

A: I never knew. When I came back, these goods were all gone. Some few good boots that I saw, I traded wheat for them - there was some few boots left.

Q: Who did I understand you to say, told you of tile disposition of this property?


A: Haight and Higbee told me all about it.

Q: Were there any Indians present at that massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many?


A: I could not tell you, but the hills were pretty full around there, and they done the massacring of the women, generally. I understood they were to accomplish it. I saw one man cut a little boy's throat with a knife just as I left the ranks to take charge of the children. I also saw others - a good many, but could not tell the names - but afterward I heard of them.


Q: Did you see or hear of any remonstrances or efforts to restrain the Indians there?


A:  I did not. I understood at the time that Carl Shirts had a kind of charge of them, and kept them in the brush.

Defense: We object to this as hearsay.

No ruling by the court.

Prosecution: Did you hear anything said on the subject of the Indians on the ground here?


A: I did not.

Q: Were you ever told what part they took in it by any who were engaged in it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Were any of the Indians wounded there?

A: Yes, sir. Three wounded that I know of.

Q: What was done with them?

A: Two died afterwards, of their wounds.

Q: After the massacre, where did the Indians go to?

A: Over to Cedar City, where they were from. They were both chiefs. One was named Bill, and the other Tom.

Q: How near to the town did they come?

A: They came back of the town - that is probably from where I lived a half of a mile in. That is, no doubt, near the cedar field.

Q: How long did they remain there?

A: They remained there a considerable length of time.

Q: Did you see any property of emigrants in their possession?

A: I saw a wagon cover that they had, and that they'd put around their wikiups.

Q: Did you see any clothes?

A: I did. I saw some clothing in the possession of the Indians, but I could not tell you how much.

Q: Won't you describe the looks and appearance of the clothes?

A: That would be a hard matter to do. In general, the clothing were a kind of home made men's wear.

Q: Was there anything peculiar on the clothes or about them?

A: Nothing very peculiar that I recollect.

Q: Was there any bullet holes in them - in any of them?

A: I could not tell.

Q: Was there any blood stains on them?

A: Yes, there was, I believe, but I could not tell you as regards to that, of the Indians.

Q: What kind of clothes did John D. Lee wear when he went to Salt Lake City?

A:  I believe he had a checked shirt on.

Q: Did he have any coat?

A: I presume he had. I didn't notice him.

Q: Did you ever see him with a coat?

A: Yes.

Q: A coat down there?

A: Of course.

Q: Do you know where he got it?

A:  I don't know where he got the coat.

 Q: Did you ever see John D. Lee in possession of any clothing that came from that train, and if so, what?

A: I did.

Q: What?

A:  I saw him get some dresses and some jeans, in the cellar.

Q: And what did he do with them?

A: I don't know, but he took them away.

Q: Was there anything said what he was to do with them?

A: He said he wanted it for some clothing. That is what he said.

 Q: I wish to call your attention, again, to the Indians. State if you know anything in relation to their participation in that massacre. Tell what you know about it - if you know how they came to participate in it.

A: I don't, only by the stories that Mr. Allen brought to me - that Mr. Allen brought to me and Joel White when he met us. He said it was...

Defense: We object.

Judge: Objection overruled.

Defense: Exception.

Witness: Allen told us, as he came up, that he was to go out there to Pinto Creek, and that John D. Lee had his order to go around below and gather up the Indians; and that he was to go around and destroy that company. That is what he told me. I made no reply.

Q: Did you ever have a conversation with John D. Lee on that subject?

A: Yes, sir. I had a conversation about it afterwards.

Q: That was it?

A: I don't recollect the conversation about it, because there was not much said about it at any time; there was very little talk at any time. But I knew the thing was done.

Q: State, if you can remember any conversation you had with him about it - if you can state it.

A: I don't remember anything that would lead to any­thing more particular about it.

Q: Was there any person in control of the Indians there, and in command open them?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who?

A:  Carl Shirts was interpreter. He had command of them.

Q: Do you know what connection, if any, Mr. Lee had with the Indians?

A: He was Agent at Harmony, so far as I understood it.

Q: As Agent, what duties did he perform?

 A: The Agent had the privilege of trading with the Indians, and to issue out anything, according to the laws of the United States, and to trade them ammunition or anything.




A: They never stood in line. "Halt" and Fire!" was one.

Q: Then, they were attacked as soon as "Halt"?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How long after you made the attack on the men before the women were attacked?

A: All done at the same time, so far as I know.

Q: You said, yesterday, that the Mormons who went out with the Indians in the first instance had attacked the emigrants some three days before the last time you have spoken of How do you know that Mormons went out with the Indians?

A: What I heard them say.

Q: Who were those that went out first, and those that came back?

A: Well, Allen, Higbee and Charlie Hopkins.

Q: Then you heard the talk about what was taking place on the field, while you still remained at Cedar?

A: I heard them at Cedar before I was ordered out.

Q: Then you had a conversation with Haight before you started out?


A: I had one with Higbee and those three men.

Q: How far was you standing from the nearest emigrant when you fired your gun?

A: Well, standing in line-maybe ten feet, maybe more. I can't say, exactly.

Q: You shot over his head, I presume.

A:  I don't know as I did.

Q: Do you think you hit him?

A: Probably I did. I wouldn't swear that I hit him, or not hit him.

Q: Did you make an effort to hit him?


A:  I did, certainly I did.


Q: Obeying orders according to your fullest capacity?


A: Yes, sir. I did.

Q: I wish you would refresh your memory and tell us whether the emigrants were marching in double file or single file at the time you fired upon them.

A: As near as I can recollect, in double file.

Q: What man, if any, came with the emigrants up to where your company was stationed.


A: I don't know any, except John D. Lee.


Q: Did he come with the men?


A: Yes, with the company. With the women ahead.

Q: Where was Lee?

A:  In the wagons.

Q: You say the women were between the wagons and the men - was there any man specially directing the movements of these emigrant men?

A: Why, of course; I didn't know anyone else that guided their movements, but Lee.

Q: Now, didn't anybody else go down into the camp but Lee?


A: Not that I know of.


Q: Do you know of anybody going down to the camp while Lee was there, but Lee?


A: I don't, unless it was those with the wagons; there was the wagons went down there.


Q: Who drove the wagons?


A: Sam McMurdy was one; and the other, I believe, belongs to Sam Knight.

Q: Is it your best recollection that no man went to the corral while Lee was there?

A: Not that I know of; if I did [say it], I don't know anything about it.

Q: Did you not state yesterday, in your examination in chief, that Lee stayed there some two hours, and a man was sent to tell him to hurry up?

A: I don't know as I did.

Q: Made no such answer?

A: No, sir.

Q: How many of your men were on horseback?


A: I don't recollect seeing more than two.


Q: You stated, I believe, that you didn't know the names of any of the people that were there killed.

A: I don't know.

Q: What name, if any, was this train known by previous to the day that they were attacked?


A: I never knew any name.


Q: Had you ever heard any special name given to them?

A: Not as I recollect; I might have heard a name, but if I did it has slipped my mind.


Q: Is it not a fact that all of you made up the arrangement to go out and kill these people for their property?


A: No, sir. There was no such a thought, in my mind, at least.

Q: And you never heard it talked of by anyone?

A: I did not.

Q: To whom did the emigrants speak of gratitude, at the time they came up to your company?


A: I don't know as they spoke to anyone in particular, that I remember anything about.


Q: After the emigrants left the corral, while they were marching up where you stood in line, did you see any Indians upon the field?


A:  I saw Indians on the right above us.

Q: How many did you see?

A: I could not tell.

Q: How many did you understand, from those in authority?


A:  I saw a good many around there.


Q: How many did you understand, from those in authority, were there?


A: I think I heard it talked of that there was something more than a hundred Indians there.

Q: Don't you know, of your own knowledge, that there was over three hundred there?

A: I do not.

[At this point, the testimony is directed to a restatement of the events immediately following the killing, in which Klingensmith gathers up the children, takes them to Hamblin's ranch, then works with an older widow and midwife to take care of them and place them with Mormon families. We pick this sequence up as he names some of those families. - ed.]

Q: Who took care of these children, after that? Where did they get homes?

A: That is more than I could tell you, all at once. I have forgotten.

Q: Take your time to it.

A: I have forgotten it.

Q: Having been placed in charge of the children upon the field of the massacre, with direction to take care of them, how does it come that you disposed of them in a manner that you cannot account for them?

A:  I got them different places around, amongst the people. I considered it a serious matter.

Q: Wasn't it your duty to get them a home?

A: I did do so.

Q: Wasn't it a matter of sufficient importance to impress it upon your memory to know who you delivered them to, so you could hold them to account for the delivery of these children?

Prosecution: Objected to.

Court: Go ahead.

Defense: Can you give me the names of these parties that you left the children with?


A: I name myself, for one; I name another Ingram - they got a couple, as they had no children - they came a good ways to get them.


Q: What did you do with the others; isn't there thirteen left or fifteen left?


A:  John M. Higbee got one, the biggest boy.


Q: Who got the others - who else got any?


A: Left one at Hamblin's; left one at Pinto Creek.


Q: That is five, do you recollect who got the other twelve?


A: I don't recollect; I took pains to get them as good places as I could.

Q: Where did you next see Lee after you returned home?

A: At Cedar City.

Q: How long was that after the transaction?

A: It might have been a week; it might have been longer; I couldn't tell you.

Q: Did you have any conversation with him at that time?


A: Yes, sir. Some.


Q: Concerning this matter?


A: No, not particularly concerning it.


Q: Who helped you brand the cattle?


A: John Urie, George Hunter and Ira Allen. I don't recollect of anybody else.


Q: Where were the cattle corralled for branding?


A: At Iron Springs, seven miles from Cedar City.


Q: Who was placed in charge of the cattle, from that time?


A: Those men who brought and helped to brand them, and put the Church brand on them by Haight's orders.


Q: How long were you engaged in branding cattle?


A: We went there in the morning, and came away in the evening.

Q: Did you ever see any of the stock, except as you branded there?

A:  I didn't. Not to my recollection. I don't know anything about that.

Q: How many horses did you see?

A: I don't recollect.

Q: How many mules?

A: I recollect of three.

Q: What was done with the mules?


A: These three went to Cedar City; two was left in my charge, and one John Higbee got.

Q: How long did you keep these two mules?

A: I kept them all the time. They were left in my charge to fit out and go and get a load of lead at the Vegas.

Q: How long did you say you were hauling lead from the Vegas?

A: Made one trip.

Q: What did you do with them after?

A: Kept them.

Q: How did that clothing, Lindsey and such things as that you spoke of get into your cellar?

A: I put it there; I put it there with the help of those that were at Iron Springs who brought it in the wagons.

Q: Who helped you put it in the cellar?


A: John Urie, George Hunter and Ira Allen as far as I recollect; there might have been some more.

Q: How long did it remain there in the cellar?

A: It remained there until after I went up to Conference and back; it was there when I went for lead, and there when I came back.

Q: How long did you remain in Salt Lake?


A: Maybe four or five days - maybe a week. I could not say exactly. For a day or two.

Q: While in Salt Lake did you inform the authorities there as to the exact manner in which that train of emigrants had been disposed of?

A: No, sir.

Q: You said nothing about it to anybody?

A:  No, sir.

Q: You didn't speak about it at all at that time?

A:  No, sir.

Q: Not to anybody in Salt Lake?

A: No, sir.

Q: Didn't you suppose at that time that the Chief authorities in the Territory resided in Salt Lake?

A: I knew that.

Q: Why did you remain silent upon that subject?

A: Because I have no right or authority to speak about it.

Q: You were still under the authority of Haight?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Under the restriction of that authority at that time?

A:  Yes, sir.

Q: How far did Haight's restriction of authority extend at that time.

A: I expect it extended pretty well up in that thing.

Q: What do you mean by that; do you mean east, west, north or south, how and what?

A: Well, I don't know as I can answer that exactly. I don't know how.

Q: Did he have any authority at Salt Lake?


A: No, I don't know. He didn't have any authority in Salt Lake, as I know of.

Q: Did any person ask you anything about it in Salt Lake?

A: I don't recollect of any outsider.

Q: Did any outsider talk with you about it?

 A: I don't know what you mean by outside or inside. I don't recollect anybody asking me anything about it in particular. I recollect of one man talking some about it.

Q: What man was that that had the audacity to talk with you on that subject?

A: It was Charlie Dalton and I talked something about it.

Q: Did you give him the facts?


A: No, I didn't give him any particular facts; he asked me about it; he said he was away from there, lived north then.

Q: Did you tell him the people had been killed, and who killed them?

A: Like enough I did in part.

Q: Do you think you did tell him?


A: I expect I did tell him something about it; but just what I told him I cannot say.


Q: Hadn't you just as much right to talk to Brigham Young, to George A. Smith, and such other parties, as you had to him?


A:  I don't know as I had, because they didn't ask me to talk about such things.


Q: Then he is the only man you have talked to about it in Salt Lake City?


A: The man was interested in it because of John D Lee being his father-in-law.


Q: How long after you returned to Cedar City after the conference that you saw John D. Lee again?


A: I don't know as I recollect seeing him at all any­more till after I came back south, that I recollect.

Q: You say that you went with Hopkins and Lee to visit President Young?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: While in the presence of President Young, was the matter mentioned by any of the parties?

A: No, sir.

Q: Who introduced the subject at that visit concerning the property formerly belonging to the emigrants?

A: President Young.

Q: What did he say, concerning that property?


A: He said, concerning that property of that people, "Let John D. Lee take charge of it, inasmuch as he is the Indian agent now." That is what he said.

Q: Did he give any direction as to what should finally be done with the property?

A: No, I don't know as he did any more than that.

Q: You say the Brigham young said to you, and to Hopkins, and to Lee, "Say nothing of what you know about this matter.”

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did he use that language at that time, that you have referred to?


A:  He did.


Q: Was anything else said by him there to you by way of advice or counsel?


A: No, sir.


Q: What reply did you make?


A: I made none.

Q: You considered it your duty to obey that counsel, the same as you had obeyed the counsel of Haight?

A:  I did, of course.

Q: How long did you remain in that same state of mind concerning your duties to your superiors?

A: I could not tell you; not a very great while. I never was catched again after that, I know that.

Q: One or two little transactions like that would satisfy almost anybody. When did you first make public the facts connected with that transaction?

A: I expect something like three years ago, in Bullionville, to Charlie Wandell.

Q: Was that affidavit you refer to drawing in every part true, or not?

A: It was, as far as I can recollect.

Q: Before what officer did you take your oath, at the time that affidavit was made?

A: In the County Clerk's in Pioche; I believe his name was Miller, Peter Miller.

Q: Then you kept in absolute silence concerning the facts concerning the tragedy something over thirteen years?

A: I didn't make a public talk of it; I might have had some talk with people sometimes, a little.

Q: How long did you remain in full fellowship with the Mormon Church after September '57?

A: Well, I was not cut off until some four or five years ago, I believe; I was not considered in full fellowship; I didn't consider myself that way.

Q: How long did you remain in full fellowship?

A: I considered myself - I never attended meetings anymore - hardly ever after I resigned my office of Bishop.

Q: When did you resign your office of Bishop?

A: Well, it was in '58 or '59.

Q: What time in '58?

 A: I think it was sometime about...

 Q: Can't you give me the date when you resigned as Bishop?

Prosecution: I cannot see the relevancy of these questions.

Defense: You will see it, before we get through.

Witness: I don't know as I can, unless I go and get the records.

Q: Are you positive it was in '58?

A: No, I am not, it may have been in '59. I am not positive to that. Perhaps it was in '59. It was sometime in the summertime, when George A. Smith and some of them was down there.

Q: What time was you cut off from the Church?

A: I don't know I heard it. I was living out on my ranch some four or five years ago.

Q: That was before you made this affidavit?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Have you ever taken steps to reunite yourself with that church since that time?

A: No, sir.

Q: Are you now a member of that church, in full standing?

A: I am not, and never expect to be.

[Attorney Bishop returns to the disposition of the emigrants' property, clothing, cattle and equipment again. As in previous questioning on this theme there is an implied suggestions that the participants committed the massacre to rob the emigrants - which Klingensmith always vehemently denies. Then the attorney suddenly turns to the question of who was in charge on the killing field, once more.]

Q: You say that the hills were full of Indians at the time that the emigrants came out of their corral, and that they were to kill the women and children, that these were the orders. Were these order given?

A: I understood that in the council, long before they started out to accomplish it.

Q: Who gave the orders from which you gathered that understanding?


A: I under­stood that Lee had charge of it.


Q: Don't fall back on that. Who gave the orders to the Indians?


A: I know not.


Q: Who gave the orders that it was to be done?


A: Well, I don't understand. I don't know who gave the orders to the Indians.


Q: Who gave the orders in the council, that the Indians should be directed to do this thing?


A: I don't know whether there was any particular order given to that effect - don't recollect of any.


Q: What did you mean, then, by saying that that was the "first orders"? I want just to correct, what do you mean by the ''first orders"? Were they the orders given in councilor the orders given in the field?


A: I don't know where the Indians got their orders for the act; I was not with the Indians, and I did not hear any order given to the Indians.


Q: How did you understand that Carl Shirts had charge of the Indians on the ground?


A: I could not tell who told that, but that is what was talked around. That was another matter that was in the air.


Q: Did anybody tell you upon the field, or in that council, that Carl Shirts had charge of the Indians on the ground?


A: I expect they did, but I don't recollect any person, particularly.


Q: How did you come to say, in your testimony, that Carl Shirts had charge of the Indians?

A: I heard so.

Q: Who from?

A: Different ones that was there.

Q: Tell me one of them.

A: I could not tell you the particulars.

Q: How many Indians were wounded there?


A: I didn't see any wounded around there.


Q: Where was it you saw the wounded Indians?


A: I saw a couple over at Cedar. They was said to be wounded there.


Q: These that you say were Bill and Tom - Chiefs?


A: Yes.

Q: When did you see this property you speak of as being in the possession of the Indians - before or after your departure to Salt Lake to attend the conference?

A: I think it was afterwards.

Q: Didn't you frequently have conversations with the Indians concerning the property of the emigrants?

A: No, sir.

Q: Never did?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you hear conversations between any of the parties that had a hand in that affair and the Indians, and talked the matter over.

 A:  No, sir.

Q: Never hear anything about that question?

A:  No, sir.

Q: They asked you yesterday how John D. Lee was dressed when he went to Salt Lake at the time you say you saw him there, and had the meeting with Brigham Young. What makes you know that Ire had a checked shirt on at that time?

A: I don't think he had it on when I saw him in Salt Lake City.

Q: It was in Salt Lake City you saw him with it on.

A: I didn't say so, as I know of.

Q: Where was he when he had this checked shirt on?

A: It was said that he started with them, and showed the bullet holes on the way.

Q: Do you know of your own knowledge how he was dressed?

A: I do not.

Q: Did you see him on his way to Salt Lake City?

A:  I did not.

Q: Why did you say that he had a checked shirt on?

A: Because that was the talk, but I didn't see him. He told that, himself.

Q: Told you himself? Did you hear him do this?

A: I did not.

Q: I don't want any more of this atmosphere that you have been imbibing. You say you did not see him on his way to Salt Lake at all.

A: I did not.

Q: How was he dressed in Salt Lake?

A:  I disremember; I cannot tell you how he was dressed - it is so long ago.

Q: You can't describe it at all?

A: No more than he was dressed some way­ could not tell what kind of clothes he did have on.

Q: Was your memory yesterday as good as it is today on that point?

A: My memory is better today than it was yesterday.

Q: From that point, how was John D. Lee dressed when he came from Salt Lake to give the report? I'm simply asking you now about your memory. I ask you now if your memory was any better yesterday that it is today on that point.

A:  I don't know as it was.

Q: Then what did you mean, yesterday, when you answered the question as to how he was dressed; my saying that he had a checked shirt on; that you had heard that and said that from rumor; or that you knew it to be so?

A: He told me that, himself.

Q: Where did he tell you that?

A: Told me that since I came up here, in the jail.

Q: Aside from what he told you since you came to town here, you know nothing of how he was dressed on that trip.

A: I don't know as I do.

Q: How do you know that Lee was the Indian agent at Harmony?

A: I don't know, only by what Young said; I have no other knowledge.

Q: Who was it that gave you the information?


A: What President Young said at the time when he said, he had better take charge of that property as he was the Indian agent. That is all I know about it, now.


Q: Did you hear John D. Lee give any commands to the troops on the field?


A: No, I don't know as I did on the field.


Q: You say, you was sent down to the Vegas for lead. Who went with you?


A: Isaac C. Haight.

Q: For what purpose was that lead to be used?

A:  I don't know, but most of it went up to Salt Lake.

Q: Where did you haul your lend to?

A:  I hauled her to Cedar City and smelted it out by the ton or load.

Q: Did you ever have any trouble with the Indians about that property that was taken by the emigrants?


A: Never knew of any trouble with the Indians about the property taken. Never knew any trouble by the authorities concerning it.

Q: How many Indians returned with these two Indian chiefs, when they returned to Cedar City?

A: I can't tell you that. They went away without my knowledge, and came back without my knowledge.

Q: How many men belonged to the tribe of that chief?

A: I could not tell you that, either. They was not a very great tribe.

Q: What tribe of Indians was the chiefs of?

A: The Paiute Tribe of Indians.

Q: Don't you know about tile time of the massacre that the Indians of Corn Creek and other part of the Territory had gathered in the vicinity of Cedar City, and that they were coming there for several days and having dances?

A: I did not.

Q: Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that after the massacre many Indians came around Cedar or in the near vicinity and had great feasts and dances?

A: No, sir. Nothing more than common run of things that I know of.

Q: In regard to the children, how long was it after the massacre before they were delivered to Dr. Forney?


A: I could not tell, exactly, but it must have been over a year, though.

Q: How many of the children that were first placed in your possession on the field of the massacre were afterward delivered to Dr. Forney?

A: I didn't see them. It wasn't by me they was collected. I didn't collect them together.

Q: After the children had been delivered to you, as you have described, did you or did you not deliver one or more of the wounded children to the Indians for the purpose of being killed?

A:  No, sir.

Q: Did you not say in the presence of William H. Dame and Samuel Knight at Hamblin's Ranch on the morning after the massacre, that you had given a wounded child to the Indians to be killed?

A: I did not.

Q: As you didn't want to be bothered with them?

A: No, sir. I never said so. I never knew anything about it.

Q: Are you acquainted with a man by the name of Jacob Hamblin.

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see him shortly after the massacre at Cedar City, and have a conversation with him concerning the massacre?

A: No, sir. Not that I have any knowledge or recollection of.

Q: Did you not see him there at that time, and did he not say to you that he rather Buchanan would hear of all the men in Utah being killed than he would give his consent to the killing of women and children; and then did you not reply, "If you break out that way, around the mouth, we will have to take care of you."

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you have any conversation substantially like that with him?

A: No, sir.

Q: Are you acquainted with Robert Keys, that was a witness on tire stand yesterday, and formerly resided at Cedar City, but now is a resident of Beaver?

A:  I am acquainted with him. Yes, sir.

Q: You say your place of residence is about twenty-two miles southerly from Pioche?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: When did you first agree to become a witness in this prosecution?

A: I don't know as at any time: I could not say as to that.

Prosecution: We object to counsel asking that. There was an agreement that he should come.

Defense: ·What officers of the government, if any, have you talked with before coming into this Territory, concerning this case, and relating to the question of your becoming a witness for the prosecution upon this trial?

Prosecution: Objected to the question for the reason that he says - what officer have you talked to - is immaterial.

Judge: Objection sustained.


Defense: Exception.

Q: Have you had any conversation with the United States Attorney or with any other officer that pretended to have the authority to bind the government to protect you from prosecution?

Prosecution: Objected to unless it is confined to the U.S. Attorney.

Judge: Objection sustained.

Defense: Exception.

Q: Have you had any conversation with the United States Attorney or either of his assistants previous to your coming on the stand as a witness in which conversation they agreed or either of them agreed that in the event of your giving a full statement of all you knew concerning the matter, the government would not proceed against you or your individual acts?

Prosecution: We have no objection to the witness answering that question.


Witness: Well, I say I have.

Q: Did they, or either of them, agree to enter a nolle to the indictment against you, if you become a witness and tell all you knew?

A:  I believe so, I can show a paper further back than that.

Q: Are you here as a witness by reason of any agreement, or any promise you have received from any person that you would not be prosecuted?

A: No, sir. There was no particular promise. I came voluntarily when I was notified.

Q: Did you expect, when you came into the Territory last week, in the company of Mr. Cross, a Deputy Marshal, that you would be tried upon an indictment then pending against you for the acts committed by you at the Mountain Meadows in Utah?

Prosecution: Objected to as immaterial. Objection withdrawn.

Witness: I cannot say as I knew what was going to be done; I came here to see the thing out, or see myself in or out; that is what I'm here for.


Q: I will ask you if you agreed - what promises have been made you on behalf of the prosecution here?


Prosecution: We object to that form of question, because they assume without any foundation of truth.

What promises have been made to you on behalf of the prosecution or else­where to induce you to testify, and by whom?


Judge: What promises, if any, were made to you; you can have a ruling on the question in that shape if you desire.

Prosecution: Objection withdrawn.

Witness: None at all.

Q: Were you not required to testify to certain facts, and did you not agree to testify to them in consideration for being exempted from prosecution on the indictment against you?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you not state to Mr. Carey, the United States Attorney, what you could testify to previous to his entering the nolle in his case or in his presence?

A: I might have stated that to somebody.

Q: I mean, Mr. Carey, the U. S. Attorney here. Did you not have a conversation with him fully concerning the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and tell him all about it after you arrived in Beaver this time, and before you were placed upon the witness stand?

A: I say yes.

Q: What promises, if any, were made to you in Nevada or California to induce you to come here to testify?

Prosecution: Objected to.

Defense: I will strike off the word "testify."

Witness: There was no particular assurances held out to me, but I was requested to come forth to this court, if I was required to testify or whatever might come up. That is all I know about it.

Defense: You say you have papers concerning this matter? What papers do you refer to?

A:  Do you want to see the papers?

Q: Yes I do.

Defense: We ask leave to have that letter filed with the testimony, as his testimony in this case, and to show the reason why this party is here. We offer the original, and file the copy.

Prosecution: Before they can offer that, they will have to prove that that is the signature of George C. Bates, and to prove that he was the Prosecuting Attorney, and had the authority to write such a letter. He was not the Prosecutor at that time. Then again, this is written by one of the attorneys of record who may not have been the Attorney at that time.  The letter was written in '71 by one of the attorneys of this person. Now, the attorney at that time had no authority or control of the prosecution and was made long before this indictment was made. It was not addressed to him.

Defense: At the time this letter was written, he was U. S. Attorney in this territory and practicing at that time; after it was written he was officer de facto, and performing the functions of office Mr. Carey is now performing.

Judge: I don't think it ought to be admitted under any circumstances.

Defense: Exception to the ruling of the court.


Next Session [Monday, July 26, 1875]
Cross-examination of Phillip Klingensmith continued

Q: Mr. Smith, what place did you reside at immediately previous to your starting to this place?

A: Do you mean now, at present, on corning here?

Q: Where were you when the officer found you - Mr. Cross, Deputy U.S. Marshal?

A: In San Bernardino County, twenty-five miles west of Ft. Mohave.

Q: How far is that point from Pioche, Lincoln City, Nevada?


A: It's in the neigh­borhood of three hundred miles.


Q: How long did you reside in that place or that vicinity?


A: I have been in that vicinity, prospecting and mining, since the last of September. Not just at that place, on that mine, but in that country around there.


Q: This place where Mr. Cross, or this party, found you? Weren’t you found there last spring?


A: The twenty-third of March.

Prosecution: I cannot see the relevancy of that testimony.

Q: How long since you resided on the ranch you spoke of as being twenty-two miles southerly of Pioche, at the place generally known as Dutch Flat?


A:  I stated before, about five years as near as I can recollect.

Q: I think you misunderstand me. How long since last resided there - last time?

A: About a year last July. I was down at the lower country.


Q: Two years this July, do you mean?


A: No, sir. About a year, when I came back.

Q: Had you been at that place that you came home during that year; or have you been absent all the time?

A: All the time absent.

Q: Where did your family reside while you had been out prospecting?

A: In Dutch Flat.


Q: Any portion of your family with you at the place spoken of as your last residence?


A: At my mines? No, sir.


Q: Were you a witness before the Grand Jury that found the indictment in this case?


A: No, sir. I was not.


Q: Have you ever been a witness or given testimony concerning this matter, in the Territory of Utah, previous to the commencement of this trial?


A: No, sir.


Q: You say, in the country where you lived everything was done by virtue of previous council.


A: Yes, sir.

Q: You also stated that many a man had been "put out of the way" as you had been informed, and that they had been put out of the way by virtue of council. State whether you were or were not present at any council when parties were ordered to put other men out of the way.

A: I was not. Never at any time.

Q: You say you took charge of the little children on the field the evening after the massacre.


A: Yes, sir.


Q: When did you receive orders first to take charge of the children?


A:  Right there, from Higbee.

Q: Was it not arranged, previous to starting for the camp, in forming the line upon the field, that you should take charge of the children after the adults should be killed?

A: Well, I can't remember anything particular about that; it may have been the understanding, but I had no orders till then and I went right to the wagons.

Q: You spoke of this wagon train numbering about - being from twenty-five to thirty. What character of wagons were they - what kind of make, wooden or iron axel?

A:  I think they were all wooden axels.

Q: What afterwards became of these wagons?

A: I don't know. They was left around the tithing office there, and afterwards, I understood, sold while I was away.

Q: Was there any other vehicles of the train brought to you, except the wagons?

A: No, sir.

Q: Wasn't there some carriages of the train brought to you?

A: No, sir.

Q: Are you positive of that?

A: I am positive of that.

Q: No carriages?

A: No, sir.

Q: No buggy?

A: Nothing of the kind. No, sir.

Q: Did you see anything of that kind in the train?


A: If there was, I never noticed it.

Q: What did you do with the guns when you took charge of the wagons and the children?

A: I don't remember of doing anything with them; don't remember of there being any guns there; there might have been, but I had nothing to do with them.

Q: What became of the guns that the emigrants surrendered?

A: I don't know.

Q: Did you ever see these guns after they were surrendered?

A:  No, not of any that were their guns.

Q: Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that the guns which the emigrants surrendered were in the wagons with the women and children - in which you found the children?

A: If they were, they might have been gathered up and taken out to Hamblin's Ranch. I knew nothing about them.

Q: You also stated that many a man had been "put out of the way" as you had been informed, and that they had been put out of the way by virtue of council. State whether you were or were not present at any council when parties were ordered to put other men out of the way.

A:  I was not. Never at any time.

Q: You say you took charge of the little children on the field the evening after the massacre.


A: Yes, sir.


Q: When did you receive orders first to take charge of the children?


A: Right there, from Higbee.

Q: Was it not arranged, previous to starting for the camp, in forming the line upon the field, that you should take charge of the children after the adults should be killed?

A: Well, I can't remember anything particular about that; it may have been the understanding, but I had no orders till then and I went right to the wagons.

Q: You spoke of this wagon train numbering about - being from twenty-five to thirty. What character of wagons were they - what kind of make, wooden or iron axel?

A: I think they were all wooden axels.

Q: What afterward became of these wagons?

A: I don't know. They was left around the tithing office there, and afterwards, I understood, sold while I was away.

Q: Was there any other vehicles of the train brought to you, except the wagons?

A: No, sir.

Q: Wasn't there some carriages of the train brought to you?

A: No, sir.

Q: Are you positive of that?

A: I am positive of that.

Q: No carriages?

A: No, sir.

Q: No buggy?

A: Nothing of the kind. No, sir.

Q: Did you see anything of that kind in the train?


A: If there was, I never noticed it.

Q: What did you do with the guns when you took charge of the wagons and the children?

A: I don't remember of doing anything with them; don't remember of there being any guns there; there might have been, but I had nothing to do with them.

Q: What became of the guns that the emigrants surrendered?

A: I don't know.

Q: Did you ever see these guns after they were surrendered?

A: No, not of any that were their guns.

Q: Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that the guns which the emigrants surrendered were in the wagons with the women and children - in which you found the children?

A: If they were, they might have been gathered up and taken out to Hamblin's Ranch. I knew nothing about them.

Q: How much money did you get there?

A: None.

Q: How much did anybody else get?

A: I didn't see anybody else get any.

Q: Can you state anything about how much money was got there?


A: No, sir. I never knew.


Q: I will ask you to state, again, how old the largest child was which was saved from that company.


A: It would be a hard matter for me to tell. I suppose, at the time probably, two years would have been the oldest.


Q: And how far was it from where the men were killed by your company to the place where the women were killed by the Indians?


A: It was not a great ways; I could not tell; we were striding along between the women and wagons. I didn't think it was over three hundred yards maybe more, maybe less.

Q: What distance was there between the nearest man - the man furthest up to tile head of tile men's column, and the hindmost woman of the women that was killed?

A:  I could not tell you.

Q: A hundred yards? Two hundred yards?

A: I could not remember such a thing.

Q: Walking over tile ground, after the massacre, following the route along in the line that that train of emigrants had passed, leaving - finding dead men and coming up to the dead women, wouldn't that enable you to form a proper idea as to about how far you had gone?

A: I didn't take that line; I went around a little - I didn't come in where the women lay.

Q: How far did the wagon pass from your column?

A: They passed by close to a little narrow valley.

Q: Did the wagons come as near to you as the people did - as the emigrants did?

A: I could not say as regards to that.

Q: Isn't it a matter of fact, taking that sheet of paper, holding it, represents the field - corral being down at this point (Illustrating), your men standing here, the men marching up to your company, coming in this way, and that the wagons that had children in them went across the valley in this way, in a straight line, striking the road something like a quarter or half a mile from here the corral stood, and coming up by your column?

A: No, I didn't see it in that way; the way that we stood, and the way that we came, seemed to be a straight way up to the emigrant company.

Q: Didn't the wagons with the children in them pass right up close by you?

A: Close by me, might have been fifty yards - a hundred yards.

Q: Didn't the men walk right in the tracks of the wagons?


A: They all moved along, and came a little ways below where we was - the men together up by the side of the wagons.

Q: Some were following right after the tracks of the wagons?

A: Yes, sir. Men following.

Q: How did you say that the wagons might have been a hundred yards off?

A: They might have been coming up.

Q: Isn't it a physical impossibility that men were within eight feet of you and the wagons a hundred yards off? Tell me how far the wagons were from you ­ are the man that was there - tell me the position of these wagons, and the position that these men occupied.

A: I could not describe that, exactly.

Q: How does it come, Mr. (Klingen) Smith, that you have such a vivid recollection of everything that you wish to testify to, but you cannot remember anything that I wish you to testify to?

Prosecution: Objected to.

Q: How does it come that you cannot recollect where the wagons were as well as where the men were?

A: I will tell you as near as I can recollect. As the company came up the soldiers were here (showing) and marched along together; they kind of drawed up together, and the wagons got ahead in the road. That throwed them in that position (illustrating).

Q: According to your best recollection, how far were the wagons from you as they passed by? How near did they come to you, where you stood in the column?

A: I don't know that.

Q: Did they come within twenty-five yards of you?

A:  I could not say that.

Q: Can you say that they came within a hundred yards of you?

A: I don't know the distance.

Defense: That will do for the present.

Prosecution redirect examination of witness:

Prosecution: You stated in your cross-examination that there was some Indians - hostile Indians up there. If you know, state how they came to be there and what they were there for.

Witness: I don't know as I can tell you anything about it; it was all rumor to me what they was there for.

Q: Where did you hear that rumor?

A: I heard it out on the ground.

Q: From whom?

A: From Mr. Lee that morning that he went out.

Q: Did you hear any soldiers on the ground speak of it, and if so, what was said?

A: I don't exactly remember about it. I might have heard it, but I don't remember.

Q: What were they there for?

A: They was there for to help finish the massacre, as I supposed, so far as I know about it.

Q: Do you know anything about it?

A: At the time we marched up - [they] was all down there before - and where the women was, more particularly - I saw them come out (illustrating) there was the Indians.

Q: What do you know of their being there - the object of their being there?

A: I could not say anything more than the object was what I saw - some of them doing the killing.

Q: Did you hear anything said about it on the ground as to what part they were to take?


A:  No, sir. Not that I recollect.

Q: What did Lee say on the subject?

A: He mentioned that they were out there at that time - these Indians, and that they had been working against the emigrants. It was reported that there were a hundred or so around there, and they had been shooting and working against the emigrants, and killing them.

Q: I wish now, to call you attention to the conversation between Brigham Young, yourself and Mr. Lee - and state that conversation as you remember it.


Defense: We enter an objection, as before, in regard to what was said. It is going over the same ground that he was examined on before in his exami­nation in chief

Judge: What is your object in going in to this again?

Prosecution: For the reason that the last statements made by the witness, in that conversation, he related the first portions of it and omitted the latter.

Judge: I see no objection to that.

Defense: Exception.

Prosecution: Now, then, state what occurred.

A: Well, when I met Mr. Lee, down at Salt Lake, as I said before, as I understood, he was to go and tell President Young all about it. I think I asked him, "Did you tell him all about it?" I asked him, "What did President Young say?" He [President Young] said, "It was all right; it was all satisfactory."

Q: I call your attention to the conversation I had in Brigham Young's office.

A: That was afterwards. Mr. Lee, and Mr. Hopkins and myself was in his office, as I stated before. He took us to the barn, showed us his barnyard and fine things, and then he took us in the house, and mentioned this thing himself, about this property. He said, "This property of the emigrants, Lee will take charge of it, inasmuch as he is the Indian agent, now." And then he turned around - looking around to us - and said, "What you know about this thing, don't even talk about it among yourselves."

Prosecution: That is all.

Defense: I wish to ask one question. You say Mr. Lee told you, on the ground, that the Indians had been attacking and fired upon by the emigrants. Where was Lee when he told you this?

A: This was down at the council, before we went to do it.

Q: At the time the hollow square was formed there?

A: Before the hollow square was formed.

At this point the witness, Phillip Klingensmith, was dismissed.

Jacob Hamblin Testimony ] Confession of John D. Lee ] Nephi Johnson Testimony ] [ Philip Klingensmith Testimony ] P. Klingensmith Affidavit ] Samuel Knight Testimony ] Laban Morrill Testimony ] Brigham Young Deposition ] HOME ] Testimonies ] HOME ] Family_Pages ]

© 1998-2014 Mountain Meadows Association. All rights reserved.