Hamblin Testimony

TESTIMONY IN TRIALS OF JOHN D. LEE

JACOB HAMBLIN TESTIMONY
Witness for the Prosecution at Second Trial of John D. Lee
September 14 to 20, 1876

About This Record

Sworn for the prosecution.

HOWARD – Q: Where did you live in August and September, 1857?

A: My home was supposed to be at Clara, but I occupied the Mountain Meadows in the summer with my stock.

Q: What county was Mountain Meadows in at that time?

A: It was considered in Iron County. It was before Washington County was organized.

Q: It is in Washington County now?

A: Yes; I believe it is.

Q: Do you remember the time of this massacre?

A: I was not at home; I left before it happened, and I got back seven or eight days after.

Q: How long before it happened was it that you left home?

A: I don't know; I met the company at Corn Creek, and camped with them there.

Q: You were going north, to the city?

A: Yes.

Q: When you returned had the massacre taken place?

A: Yes, sir; it was done before I got home - I heard of it before I got home.

Q: When you got home, what did you find there on the ground?

A: Well, there were the bodies of the company lying about there.

Q: Were they dead or alive?

A: I didn't see any live ones lying there.

Q: How many dead ones did you see?

A: I suppose over one hundred.

Q: Did you count the skulls there?

A: The next spring, I took my man and we buried over one hundred and twenty skulls - skeletons; I don't remember exactly, something like one hundred and twenty. Two of us gathered up the bones.

Q: Did you count the skulls?

A: Yes, sir; we counted them.

Q :Can you now remember how many there were?

A: I think it was one hundred and twenty odd; I am satisfied it was over that, but I don't just remember the number.

Q: After the massacre did you have any conversation with John D. Lee about it?

A: I don't know as I did after I got home.

Q: Did you see him before you got home on that trip?

A: I did. I met him at Fillmore.

Q: Was that after the massacre?

A: Yes, sir; it was this side of Fillmore. I told him I heard a rumor of it among the Indians, and he told me about it.

Q: State whether he had any boasts to make about it, or communications concerning it. If so what and how?

A: I asked him how it came up, or something of that kind. He said that the emigrants passed through and threatened to make their outfit out of those outlying settlements, and that he could not keep the Indians back, and he had to go and lead the next attack, and he got a bullet hole through his hat and shirt, and then afterwards got more Indians and had to decoy them out.

Q: Tell me the whole conversation?

A: I will if you will let me. That was the conversation. I talked about it with him, and he justified himself in this way: That the Indians made him go out and go and lead the next attack; afterwards they called on the Clara Indians, and that he decoyed them out, and they massacred them.

Q: Did he say where he decoyed them out?

A: Decoyed them out of the emigrant camp.

Q: Did he say why the massacre took place?

A: Yes, I believe he gave reasons for it.

Q: What were they?

A: Well, that the attack had been made by the Indians, and that they could not keep them back, and it was supposed expedient. That there was an army right on our border. That they would lead to giving the people much bother and trouble, and that they would testify against them, and so on, and it was thought best to use them up - all that could tell tales, that is as near as I can remember.

Q: Who did he say concluded that?

A: I don't think he mentioned any names.

Q: Did he tell you whether any other white men were with him or not at the time he led the attack?

A: He said that there was no one with him.

Q: Did he tell you how it happened that he got down there and was there alone?

A: Yes; I told you. He went out to watch them and keep them from making their outfit from the outlying settlements, and the Indians could not be restrained.

Q: How long did he say that attack was made before the massacre?

A: It ran along three or four days, he told me.

Cross examined -

Q. In the conversation that you had with Lee, did he not state to you that after the attack had been made by the Indians upon the emigrants that word had been sent to Cedar City for assistance to save the emigrants from the Indians?

A: Yes, sir - said they sent word there.

Q: Who did he tell you sent word to Cedar City?

A: He did - he sent word.

Q: What did he tell you that word was that he sent to Cedar City?

A: He sent word that the emigrants had been attacked - that the Indians were very mad, and he didn't know how to keep them down.

Q: Give, as near as you can the conversation that you had with Mr. Lee at the time you refer to?

A: I believe I have.

Q: Didn't he tell you that Haight or Higbee sent back word that the emigrants must be destroyed, because of the fact that Stewart had killed Aiden at the springs? Didn't he mention something of that kind to you in that same conversation?

A: I don't remember as he did. He spoke of some man being shot at Little Pinto in the course of the evening. It was after the Indians had attacked, if I remember right, that some men left the camp and undertook to go to Cedar City, and were killed on the way - one or two I think, and one or two came back.

Q: Go on and tell all that he told you about it, about the killing of that man at Pinto - how it was done, and all about it.

A: I don't know that I can. I remember that he said that there was one killed there that went out to see if they could get help from Cedar City. Two or three went, and one was killed and one or two came back in the night. I don't know but that they got back to camp.

Q: Did he tell you what word was sent back to him from Cedar City after that time?

A: Yes; he told me something about the message that came there.

Q: Tell me what was said about it?

A: One message came to not disturb the emigrants, and after the message went that they had been attacked, I think he said that there was one that they be all killed or used up.

Q: Go on and tell what he said was in that last message - he was explaining it to you.

A: I am satisfied the message was - it commenced that they should be used up, or something like that.

Q: Did he tell you who that message was from?

A: I don't think he did.

Q: Did he tell you where it was from, whether from Cedar City or elsewhere?

A: No, he used the language that he got word.

Redirect.

Q: Do you believe what he said, that he got a message to use up those emigrants, from any authority?

A: I don't know that I do.

Q: Don't you know that he lied about it?

A: No answer.

Q: Don't you think he did?

A: No answer.

Q: He was telling you this in justification after the massacre?

A: Yes, he told me that. I asked what called for such an act, and he told what the reason was.

Q: He gave you that reply in his justification?

A: He said he got word to use them up, that this army was on the borders.

Q: He got word that being commenced, that on account of the army being on the borders, that he had better finish it?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you understand that that came from Higbee or Haight - that word?

A: I don't think he said.

Q: Do you know the relations existing between Higbee, Haight and Lee, so as to know from whom it came?

A: I would expect it would come from Isaac C. Haight, if any word was sent from Cedar City; if it was north, it would be from Parowan, but I don't think he told me where it was from.

Q: Klingensmith was in a position, I suppose, to send such word, if any was sent?

A: Klingensmith was presiding Bishop. If it was orders in a military capacity it would be somebody else.

Q: If it was in a military capacity, who would it have been from?

A: The way I understand it, it would be Dame.

Q: If he told the truth and authority came to him from a superior military officer - and if it came from an ecclesiastical, who would it have been from?

A: It would have been from Klingensmith.

Jacob Hamblin Re-called.

HOWARD – I am not in the habit, your Honor, of recalling a witness this way, but I was not fully posted in regard to all the facts that Mr. Hamblin would testify to. I have found he knows some additional facts, and I will ask leave to examine him further.

Q: How far above this place, Beaver, was it that you had a conversation with John D. Lee?

A: It was about some springs, this side of Fillmore, probably seven or eight miles.

Q: How far is Fillmore from here?

A: About sixty miles.

Q: How far is Cedar City from here?

A: Supposed to be fifty-five miles - fifty-three to fifty-five miles.

Q: Is there any other place called Cedar City, except Cedar City?

A: No, sir, I don't know any. It is called Cedar or Cedar City.

Q: How far is it from Cedar City to Parowan?

A: Eighteen miles, I used to suppose it was. I have heard it called that.

Q: How far is it from Parowan to Harmony?

A: About thirty-five miles, it is supposed to be.

Q: Is Harmony on the road, or is it off of the road from Cedar City to the Meadows?

A: It is twelve miles south of the road.

Q: Where do you leave the road going from Parowan to the Meadows, to go to Harmony?

A: We leave it two and a half miles below Cedar City.

Q: Then it is off to the left as you are going?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Where Is Pinto?

A: It would be within seven miles of the north end of the Meadows, where my ranch was.

Q: What was the condition of the Meadows at that time, with regard to being a good stopping place for travelers?

A: At that time it had a very luxuriant growth of grass all over the valley, and springs at each end. It was considered a good stopping place for companies, and was occupied by myself and two or three others at the north end. We had then formed a settlement called the Clara.

Q: In this conversation that you had with Mr. Lee, did he say anything to you about the manner in which, or by whom, the men had been drawn into that massacre? If he did, will you state all he said, in your own way?

A: It was a long while ago, but I recollect him telling we that there were white men there, and that they didn't know what they were going for until they got there, and some would not act and some would.

Q: What do you know about the disposition of the property of those emigrants?

A: There was none on the Meadows when I got there, that I saw. I saw two or three young men driving two or three hundred head of cattle, going to the Iron Springs. Afterwards I saw them on the Harmony range - that drove of Texas cattle.

Q: Whose range was the Harmony range?

A: It belonged to the Harmony settlement - the citizens of Harmony.

Q: Do you know of Mr. Lee using any of those cattle, butchering or using any of them?

A: He had charge of them.

BISHOP –

Q: To save time and trouble, we will admit the corpus delicti.
Of course it is understood that counsel cannot admit anything against his client in a criminal case. But there will be no question raised about it. It is an undisputed fact that something like one hundred and twenty people were killed about that time and at that place. And that the number of people charged in the indictment were killed there will be no question. That they were killed at that place there will be no question. We will never argue before any court that there has not been a killing as charged in the indictment, except that we will always argue that the defendant did not do it.

Q: Calling your attention back to that conversation, I will ask you to tell the court and jury, in your own way, what Mr. Lee told you in regard to his personal participation in that killing, if he told you anything?

A: Well, I believe I told it here yesterday - that he spoke of white men being engaged in it, and that he made an attack at daylight; that he could not keep the Indians back. They were so mad because one of their men got killed, and another wounded, that he led the attack and got a bullet through his hat and another through his shirt. The talk was something like this: They went out there to watch the emigrants and see that they should not get their outfit from the outlying settlements; that the Indians made the attack at daylight, and one of them got killed and another wounded, and that raised their temper to such a pitch that they went for him and compelled him to lead the attack, which he did once or twice once anyway - and got the bullet through his hat and one through his shirt. The, emigrants were so strongly entrenched they could do nothing with them. And afterwards they were under the necessity of decoying them out with a flag of trace. And they came along in the Meadows to where the Indians were lying in ambush, and they rose up and massacred them. The emigrants were unarmed.

Q: Tell what else he told you?

A: Well, he spoke of many little incidents.

Q: Mention any of those incidents?

A: There were two young ladies brought out.

Q: Whom by?

A: By an Indian Chief at Cedar City, and he asked him what he should do with them, and the Indian killed one and he killed the other.

Q: Tell the story as he told you.

A: That is about it.

Q: Where were those young girls brought from - did he say?

A: From a thicket of oak brush, where they were concealed. It was an Indian Chief from Cedar City.

Q: Tell just what he said about that.

A: The Indian killed one and he cut the other one's throat, is what he said.

Q: Who cut the other's throat?

A: Mr. Lee.

Q: Tell me what Mr. Lee said; state the circumstances of that killing, what conversation passed between that Indian Chief and Lee, and the conversation between the woman and himself?

A: I don't know that I could.

Q: Tell all you can remember about it; you say the Chief brought him the girls. I think I have told it about all. Go over it again; tell us all the details of the conversation of the killing.

A: Well, he said they were all killed - all, as he supposed; that the Chief of Cedar City then brought out the young ladies.

Q: What did he say the Chief said to him?

A: Asked what he should do with them.

Q: What else did the Chief say?

A: He said they didn't ought to be killed.

Q: Did the Chief say to Lee why they should not be killed?

A: Well, he said they were pretty and he wanted to save them.

Q: What did he tell you that he said to the Chief?

A: According to the orders that he had that they were too old and too big to let live.

Q: Then what did he say took place - what did he say he told the Chief to do?

A: The Chief shot one of them.

Q: Did he say he told the Chief to shoot her?

A: He said he told him to.

Q: What did he say the girl did when he told the Chief to shoot her?

A: I don't know.

Q: Did she cover her face?

A: No; he didn't say she covered her face.

Q: Did he say she pulled her bonnet down over her face?

A: He didn't tell me so.

Q: Who did he say were by when that shooting took place?

A: Indians standing round - a good many.

Q: After the Chief shot that one did he tell you what the other one said or did to him, Lee?

A: I don't think Mr. Lee did tell me.

Q: Did he tell you himself who killed the other one?

A: I told you that he said it was a Cedar City Chief that killed one.

Q: Who killed the other?

A: He did it, he said.

Q: How?

A: He threw her down and cut her throat.

Q: Did he tell you what she said to him?

A: No.

Q: Who did tell you that?

A: The Indians told me a good many things.

Q: Didn't Mr. Lee tell you that she told him to spare her life, and she would love him as long as she lived?

A: Lee didn't tell me that.

Q: Did you ascertain in that conversation, or subsequently, where it was that they were killed?

A: When I got home I asked my Indian boy, and he went out to where this took place, and he saw two young ladies lying there with their throats cut.

Q: How old was he?

A: Sixteen or seventeen.

Q: What was the condition of those bodies?

A: They were rather in a putrid state; their throats were cut; I didn't look further than that.

Q: What were their ages?

A: Looked about fourteen or fifteen.

Q: At what point were their bodies from the others?

A: Southeast direction, towards some thickets of oak.

Q: How far off?

A: About fifty yards.

Q: Were those bodies up a little ravine, a little way?

A: Yes, on a rise of ground.

Q: What were their ages, about?

A: Thirteen to fifteen, I would suppose.

Q: Did you learn from the children, or from any other source, their names?

A: Well, I suppose I did.

Q: What name?

A: There was a little girl at my house, I found with my family that was in that company; she said their names were Dunlap; she claimed to be their sister.

Q: How old was she?

A: Eight years old, she said.

Q: Did you go up there and find those bodies yourself, with the assistance of the Indian boy?

A: I walked over the ground, looked at it all pretty much and saw these two bodies.

Q: He told you where those two bodies were to be found, did he?

A: Yes, sir. The others had been buried slightly, but those two hadn't been; there was quite a number scattering around there.

Q: What became of the children of those emigrants? How many children were brought there?

A: Two to my house, and several in Cedar City. I was acting subagent for Forney. I gathered the children up for him; seventeen in number, all I could learn of.

Q: Whom did you deliver them to?

A: Forney, Superintendent of Indian Affairs for Utah.

Q: Were there any of the wagons or other property burned there on the ground?

A: I never saw any sign of burning, and never heard of any being burned.

Cross examined – BISHOP:

Q: What day in September was it that you had this conversation with John D. Lee, about seven or eight miles this side of Fillmore?

A: I don't recollect the date, I left the city about the 14th, and came directly there.

Q: Who was present at that conversation?

A: A man by the name of Bishop.

Q: That was not me?

A: No; that man had two good eyes, and you have but one.

Q: What Bishop was that, was he a Mormon Bishop?

A: No, he was not a Mormon Bishop; he was a merchant. He had been hauling goods from California, and dealing here some in these settlements.

Q: Can you give me his other name?

A: No, sir; I never heard it.

Q: Was it Jesse Bishop?

A: I don't know his other name.

Q: Lee told you and this man Bishop all about it - got you two together and told you?

A: I don't think Bishop heard the conversation, or much of it.

Q: Did Bishop hear any of it?

A: I don't know that he did, or that he didn't.

Q: Then why did you say that he told you and this man Bishop?

A: I said he was there.

Q: You heard the conversation?

A: Yes, I heard it; but I don't know as any other man heard it.

Q: There was a man present by the name of Bishop?

A: He was in the same camp.

Q: Where were you at the time this conversation took place?

A: I was five or six miles this side of Fillmore, at the Springs.

Q: What time of day was it?

A: It was afternoon sometime.

Q: Which way was John D. Lee traveling at the time you saw him?

A: Going north, to the city.

Q: You were going South?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Tell me what he said about the orders that he had. You have said that he told the Chief to kill the little girl, and that he killed the other, because his orders were that they were all to be used up.

A: He said he had orders to use up all that company that could tell tales.

Q: Where did he get these orders from? Did he tell you that?

A: I told you no, that I don't remember that he did.

Q: Do you recollect that he didn't?

A: If he did I don't recollect it.

Q: I want to get as full a statement of facts as possible. I want you to tell me everything that you think he said, or, that he did say. When did he tell you that he got those orders from Cedar City?

A: It was my impression that he got them from Cedar City, but I could not say what the man said about it, but I had that idea.

Q: Who else did he tell you was on the ground siding in this killing?

A: The names I don't know as he mentioned. I think he mentioned Bishop Klingensmith being there.

Q: Who else?

A: He mentioned Higbee being there.

Q: Who else did he mention?

A: He mentioned my brother being there, bringing some Indians there. He sent him word to bring the Indians up there. Sent him word of this affair taking place, and for him to go and get the Indians, and bring up the Clara Indians.

Q: Your brother, then, brought the Indians to the Meadows, and then left there?

A: Yes, he told me so.

Q: Now, how was it about the Indians making an attack about daylight? Were they repulsed?

A: Yes.

Q: One killed and another wounded?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: That enraged the Indians, and so Lee led the next attack?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who do you mean were so enraged - the Indians?

A: Yes, the Indians. He claimed the idea that he had to do it to save his own life. They were very mad, and wanted him to help use up that company.

Q: Did he not tell you in that same conversation that he tried to appease the Indians and keep them from attacking the train?

A: I don't remember just the words, but he said he could not keep them from attacking them just at daylight.

Q: Didn't he tell you that he tried to keep them off?

A: I don't think so. I think he said he could not keep them off.

Q: Did he say anything about the Indians calling him any names because he would not go?

A: He went off towards the Clara and cried, and they called him crier - yah gauts.

Q: Why did they call him this?

A: Because he cried.

Q: That was before he led the attack?

A: I don't know.

Q: Are you positive that he told you that he cut that woman's throat?

A: Yes, I am positive of that, or I would not have told it.

Q: How long is it since you have told anybody that John D. Lee had told you that?

A: It has been about three seconds.

Q: Where have you lived since the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

A: My family has been at the Clara the most of the time; the last six years have been at Kanab.

Q: You have lived in Utah all that time?

A: My home has been in Utah.

Q: That has been your home?

A: My home has been in Utah.

Q: Didn't Lee tell you more than you have told? Didn't he tell you about a Council that was held on the field before the massacre?

A: He told me. We had a good deal of conversation about it.

Q: Tell me if he did not inform you that a Council was held on the field, on Mountain Meadows, by the people from Cedar City, before the massacre, and that he opposed the killing of the emigrants until he found that he could do no good?

A: After we had talked some time I asked the necessity of such a thing, or why it was, and he told me that he had orders to do so.

Q: Did he not tell you that there was a Council held there at the Meadows, and that it was then decided that they should be killed?

A: No, I never heard that there was a Council held there to make any decision, or to decide anything but the subject or counseling how to decoy them out.

Q: Who counseled with them?

A: There was Klingensmith, the Bishop of Cedar City.

Q: Who else counseled with him?

A: I think he said John M. Higbee. I am satisfied it was.

Q: Did he tell you how long before the massacre it was that they talked this over?

A: I don't think that he did.

Q: You were a subagent and Indian interpreter at that time, were you not?

A: Right away after that Forney appointed me as subagent. At that time I was no agent, nor in any particular office, unless a missionary in the south country to establish some settlements on the Clara.

Q: What reason did Lee give you in that conversation for the killing of the emigrants? He must have given you some reason why it was necessary to commit such a deed?

A: I asked what called for it, why they did it. He said that attack at daylight would have thrown censure upon this people.

Q: On what people?

A: The people that were living here.

Q: Do you mean the whites that were living here at the time?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Go on and tell all he said. I want you to make it as bad as you can tell all that you said, all that he said?

A: I would not undertake that.

Q: Tell all that you can recollect? I have, the substance of it? There must have been a good deal said about the reasons for doing this thing?

A: The cause that he always gave to me was that which I told you. That after they came through there and behaved very rough, and said that they helped kill old Joe Smith, and were going to be ready there at the Meadows when their teams got recruited, and when Johnston commenced on the north end, they would on the south end, and he was asked by authority - Haight or Dame - to go and watch those emigrants and see that they didn't molest those weak settlements. When I asked him what it was for - that in doing so, when they got there the Indians made this attack at daylight.

Q: The Indians then made the first attack?

A: He said they made it voluntarily - they made the first attack.

Q: You spoke of General Johnston's army marching towards Utah. Where was it?

A: At Fort Bridger then.

Q: Who was it understood that Johnston was understood to be marching against them?

A: The understanding and feeling was that he was marching against the Mormons as a people, Church or nation, and was going to try to burst up the whole concern. That was what we expected.

Q: You expected, then, that Johnston with the army of the United States, was leading that army against this people?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: With the intention of exterminating them or compelling them to abandon their religion?

A: Yes, sir, that was my belief - to do away with the Mormon religion.

Q: How long before that had it been that this same feeling of fear or anxiety had been felt by this people, occasioned by Johnston's approach?

A: I think it had been two or three months, it had come south at the time. I think it was the 24th of July when a celebration was held in one of the canyons, that word came that Johnston was on his way.

Q: After that 24th of July, did that report have any effect on this people to cause them to organize as a military people?

A: No, that was organized before that, as far as I knew and was acquainted with the counsel.

Q: From that time on up to the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, tell me if the people were organized as a militia, and enrolled as such?

A: The instructions we had from George A. Smith, who was sent as representing President Young's mind, was to save everything like breadstuff, and use it when we wanted it.

Q: Did the people ever meet and drill, have exercises and musters, so as to make them understand the use of arms, and make them familiar with military tactics?

A: Yes, sir, there used to be drills, sometimes, those days.

Q: Was it not a general occurrence for them to meet and drill?

A: Yes, they drilled at Fillmore and Cedar - I don't know about Harmony - using as much effort as possible to perfect themselves in military tactics. They were always doing that; they did that in Illinois.

Q: Did you not understand that all the men between eighteen and sixty years of age were enrolled in the militia?

A: Yes, I understood it so.

Q: Who was the highest military officer in this division?

A: William H. Dame was first in command in the southern country. He was Colonel of the Iron Militia, as I understood it. I was out a good deal.

Q: Who was the highest military officer at Cedar City?

A: Well, that I could not testify to, but I think it was Isaac C. Haight, but I would not testify to it, because I don't know.

Q: State if you know whether John M. Higbee belonged to the militia or not?

A: Well, he belonged to the militia, but whether as private or officer, I don't know.

Q: How many men did John D. Lee tell you had gone from Cedar City to the Mountain Meadows, and that were present at the time of the Massacre?

A: Well, if he told me I have forgotten.

Q: Did you ever have a conversation with him, or with any other person, as to how many or about how many were there?

A: No, I don't know that I had. I heard there was something like fifty in all from Cedar City and from below there, but that is nothing but an idea - not founded on fact as reports.

Q: You spoke about Lee telling you that there was a necessity for killing those young girls, because they were older than those that his orders permitted him to save. State now, if he did not tell you in that conversation some reason for the killing of the grown people.

A: The reason was what I told you.

Q: Did he not say that if they were permitted to go they would tell the tale in California, about what had been done there by the Mormons?

A: His talk was and his excuses were that it would be a bad thing for the people here in Utah, if it was known, and got out in such a troublous time. It would bring much trouble on the Mormons as a people.

Q: Was not that trouble to come from their notifying the people of California of what had been done?

A: Well, yes. When I interrogated him about that he said - I think he said - it would have a tendency to bring trouble from California.

Q: Did he not tell you that that was the understanding of the people, that if they were permitted to go, that it would call an army from the south, and that was the reason these instructions were sent as they were?

A: He didn't say anything about the people.

Q: Did he not tell you why the instructions came to him as they did?

A: He did not tell who it came from, he said he did it by authority.

Q: Did he not tell you that he did it by authority and the reason that authority gave was that these parties, if permitted to go, would raise a war cloud in California?

A: I don't know as he did. He said it would lead to bringing an army down upon liS; that is what he told me.

Q: Did he tell you anything further?

A: I think I have told you all that was important that John D. Lee said.

Q: Did not John D. Lee tell you in that same conversation, that after the Indians made the attack the first time, that one or more men started from the emigrant camp for Cedar City, and met some men going to the emigrant camp from Cedar City; that they met at the springs, and that then Young Aiden was killed by William C. Stewart?

A: He gave me an account of it.

Q: Tell me what he said about it?

A: I can't do that.

Q: Then give the substance of it.

A: It would be from memory, and there might be an error in it. He told me - he spoke of three men starting back to go to Cedar City to get assistance and to give information of what was going on after the first Indian attack. During that time there were three men went out in the night, and one was killed at Little Pinto, four miles this side of the Meadows. I don't know who he said killed them. I don't know as he said that he knew. I think one was killed there, and the other got back to their camp. They wounded one in the night, and the thought was this would lead to trouble if they were permitted to go, on account of this man being wounded and telling how it was done, and what had happened in the past, was about his language; what had happened would lead to bringing trouble, perhaps an army on the southern people, and especially that action at the springs, in the killing that man.

Q: Did Lee tell you who was at the springs at that time?

A: No, if he did, I don't remember.

Q: Did he say this to you - that it was understood by the authorities that one man was wounded at the springs, and one man killed by Stewart, and if those people were permitted to go to California they would notify the people of California that the whites had made an attack in conjunction with the Indians; that they would lead an army from the south and west, and that for safety they considered it necessary as a war measure to kill those people?

A: I think he told you that, Mr. Bishop. I told you that when I asked him, he told me that that would lead to bringing an army here. I am satisfied that is what he said. But as to the particulars of the killing at Little Pinto I could not say, only that a man was killed there and one wounded, and they had got back; that the attack at daylight was the cause of the emigrants being killed.

Q: Mr. Hamblin, have you now detailed to the jury all of the conversation that you had with John D. Lee, at the time that you met him seven or eight miles this side of Fillmore?

A: I think I have, that I recollect distinctly enough to mention here. I may think of something else.

Q: You say you saw some of the cattle on the Harmony range. How many people used that range for their cattle?

A: I think something like twenty families.

Q: Do you know who took charge of the stock immediately after the massacre?

A: I met two young men driving it - between two and three hundred head.

Q: Who were they?

A: They lived at Cedar City. I did not know them. They said they were going to drive them to the Iron Springs, and then afterwards I learned that John D. Lee took them.

Q: Who were those young men?

A: I do not know. I was not acquainted with them. I was not much acquainted at Cedar City. They lived there, they said.

Q: How far did you live from Cedar City at that time?

A: My family was then twenty-eight miles from Cedar City, at the Meadows.

Q: Did you spend any time at Cedar City soon afterwards?

A: When I came through I stopped about ten minutes. I was on an express.

Q: Where were you carrying the express?

A: I was going to overtake another company. Colonel Dame was afraid they would jump into them, and wanted me to go and see to it.

Q: Afraid who would jump into them?

A: The Indians.

Q: Where did you get that express?

A: From him.

Q: Where at?

A: At Wild Cat Canyon, eight or ten miles north of here.

Q: That was when you were coming from Salt Lake?

A: That was.

Q: After you had left John D. Lee?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who were you carrying that express to?

A: To the Indians - if there were any. He said he had learned they were following up this company.

Q: What company?

A: The company that was following up the company that was massacred. They were stopped here a while, and the Indians wounded one, or killed one, or something.

Q: Have you ever given this conversation that you had with Lee, to any one, to the public generally? I do not ask if you have stated it to the counsel in the case, but to others?

A: I have no recollection of it.

Q: Have you ever given it to any court or jury, or given a statement of it?

A: No, sir, not at all - not until now.

Q: Have you ever given a report of it to any of your superiors in the Church, or officers over you?

A: Well, I did speak of it to President Young and George A. Smith.

Q: Did you give them the whole facts?

A: I gave them some more than I have here, because I recollected more of it.

Q: When did you do that?

A: Pretty soon after it happened.

Q: You are certain you told it fuller than you have told it here on the stand?

A: I told them everything I could.

Q: Who else did you tell it to?

A: I have no recollection of telling it to any one else.

Q: Why have you not told it before this time?

A: Because I did not feel like it.

Q: Why did you not feel like it? You felt and knew that a great crime had been committed, did you not?

A: I felt that a great crime had been committed. But Brigham Young told me that "as soon as we can get a court of justice, we will ferret this thing out, but till then don't say anything about it."

Q: There have been courts of justice in this territory ever since that time?

A: I have never seen the effects of it yet. I have seen it tried.

Q: Then this to the first time you have ever felt at liberty to tell it?

A: It is the first time I ever felt that any good would come of it. I kept it to myself until it was called for in the proper place.

Q: You feel now that the proper time has come?

A: I do indeed.

Q: I presume you have talked it over with friends, and they advised you that this would be a good time and place to tell it?

A: I had an idea that if I came here that it would be a pretty good place to tell it.

Q: And in pursuance of that idea you are going on to tell it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Are you certain that you have told all that you know about it?

A: I am certain that I know all I tell.

Q: Answer the other part?

A: I think I have, all that is important.

Q: Have you told it all?

A: No, sir, I have not.

Q: Then tell it?

A: I will not undertake that now. I would not like to undertake it.

Redirect – HOWARD:

Q: How long have you known John D. Lee?

A: Between thirty and forty years.

Q: How long is it since Mr. Lee ceased to be so ardent in his feelings and religious zeal that he was willing to run the risk he did down there at the Mountain Meadows, to defend his religion?

A: What I knew of him, he was always pretty zealous in what is called Mormonism - he was at that time.

Q: How is it now?

BISHOP –

Q: We object to the question; it is not expected that a man shall be called a criminal for giving up his belief in such a Church. It is wholly foreign to the question at issue.

Objection sustained.

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