for the prosecution.
Q: Where did you live in August and September, 1857?
home was supposed to be at Clara, but I occupied the Mountain Meadows in the
summer with my stock.
county was Mountain Meadows in at that time?
was considered in
County. It was before
County was organized.
Q: It is
I believe it is.
you remember the time of this massacre?
A: I was
not at home; I left before it happened, and I got back seven or eight days
long before it happened was it that you left home?
don't know; I met the company at Corn Creek, and camped with them there.
were going north, to the city?
Q: When you returned had the massacre taken place?
sir; it was done before I got home - I heard of it before I got home.
you got home, what did you find there on the ground?
there were the bodies of the company lying about there.
they dead or alive?
didn't see any live ones lying there.
many dead ones did you see?
suppose over one hundred.
you count the skulls there?
next spring, I took my man and we buried over one hundred and twenty skulls
- skeletons; I don't remember exactly, something like one hundred and
twenty. Two of us gathered up the bones.
you count the skulls?
sir; we counted them.
you now remember how many there were?
think it was one hundred and twenty odd; I am satisfied it was over that,
but I don't just remember the number.
the massacre did you have any conversation with John D. Lee about it?
don't know as I did after I got home.
you see him before you got home on that trip?
did. I met him at Fillmore.
that after the massacre?
sir; it was this side of Fillmore. I told him I heard a rumor of it among
the Indians, and he told me about it.
whether he had any boasts to make about it, or communications concerning it.
If so what and how?
asked him how it came up, or something of that kind. He said that the
emigrants passed through and threatened to make their outfit out of those
outlying settlements, and that he could not keep the Indians back, and he
had to go and lead the next attack, and he got a bullet hole through his hat
and shirt, and then afterwards got more Indians and had to decoy them out
me the whole conversation?
will if you will let me. That was the conversation. I talked about it with
him, and he justified himself in this way: That the Indians made him go out
and go and lead the next attack; afterwards they called on the Clara
Indians, and that he decoyed them out, and they massacred them.
he say where he decoyed them out?
Decoyed them out of the emigrant camp.
he say why the massacre took place?
I believe he gave reasons for it.
that the attack had been made by the Indians, and that they could not keep
them back, and it was supposed expedient. That there was an army right on
our border. That they would lead to giving the people much bother and
trouble, and that they would testify against them, and so on, and it was
thought best to use them up - all that could tell tales, that is as near as
I can remember.
did he say concluded that?
don't think he mentioned any names.
he tell you whether any other white men were with him or not at the time he
led the attack?
said that there was no one with him.
he tell you how it happened that he got down there and was there alone?
A: Yes; I told you. He
went out to watch them and keep them from making their outfit from the
outlying settlements, and the Indians could not be restrained.
long did he say that attack was made before the massacre?
ran along three or four days, he told me.
the conversation that you had with Lee, did he not state to you that after
the attack had been made by the Indians upon the emigrants that word had
been sent to
City for assistance to
save the emigrants from the Indians?
sir - said they sent word there.
did he tell you sent word to
did - he sent word.
did he tell you that word was that he sent to
sent word that the emigrants had been attacked - that the Indians were very
mad, and he didn't know how to keep them down.
as near as you can the conversation that you had with Mr. Lee at the time
you refer to?
believe I have.
Didn't he tell you that Haight or Higbee sent back word that the emigrants
must be destroyed, because of the fact that Stewart had killed Aiden at the
springs? Didn't he mention something of that kind to you in that same
don't remember as he did. He spoke of some man being shot at Little Pinto in
the course of the evening. It was after the Indians had attacked, if I
remember right, that some men left the camp and undertook to go to Cedar
City, and were killed on the way - one or two I think, and one or two came
Q: Go on
and tell all that he told you about it, about the killing of that man at
Pinto - how it was done, and all about it.
don't know that I can. I remember that he said that there was one killed
there that went out to see if they could get help from
City. Two or three
went, and one was killed and one or two came back in the night. I don't know
but that they got back to camp.
he tell you what word was sent back to him from
City after that time?
he told me something about the message that came there.
me what was said about it?
message came to not disturb the emigrants, and after the message went that
they had been attacked, I think he said that there was one that they be all
killed or used up.
Q: Go on
and tell what he said was in that last message - he was explaining it to you
A: I am
satisfied the message was - it commenced that they should be used up, or
something like that.
he tell you who that message was from?
don't think he did.
he tell you where it was from, whether from
City or elsewhere?
he used the language that he got word.
you believe what he said, that he got a message to use up those emigrants,
from any authority?
don't know that I do.
you know that he lied about it?
you think he did?
was telling you this in justification after the massacre?
he told me that. I asked what called for such an act, and he told what the
gave you that reply in his justification?
said he got word to use them up, that this army was on the borders.
got word that being commenced, that on account of the army being on the
borders, that he had better finish it?
you understand that that came from Higbee or Haight - that word?
don't think he said.
you know the relations existing between Higbee, Haight and Lee, so as to
know from whom it came?
would expect it would come from Isaac C. Haight, if any word was sent from
City; if it was north,
it would be from Parowan, but I don't think he told me where it was from.
Klingensmith was in a position, I suppose, to send such word, if any was
Klingensmith was presiding Bishop. If it was orders in a military capacity
it would be somebody else.
Q: If it
was in a military capacity, who would it have been from?
way I understand it, it would be Dame.
Q: If he
told the truth and authority came to him from a superior military officer -
and if it came from an ecclesiastical, who would it have been from?
would have been from Klingensmith.
Jacob Hamblin Re-called.
I am not in the habit, your Honor, of recalling a witness this way, but I
was not fully posted in regard to all the facts that Mr. Hamblin would
testify to. I have found he knows some additional facts, and I will ask
leave to examine him further.
Q: How far above this place, Beaver, was it that you had a conversation with
John D. Lee?
was about some springs, this side of Fillmore, probably seven or eight
far is Fillmore from here?
far is Cedar City from here?
Supposed to be fifty-five miles - fifty-three to fifty-five miles.
there any other place called Cedar City, except Cedar City?
sir, I don't know any. It is called Cedar or Cedar City.
far is it from Cedar City to Parowan?
Eighteen miles, I used to suppose it was. I have heard it called that.
far is it from Parowan to Harmony?
thirty-five miles, it is supposed to be.
Harmony on the road, or is it off of the road from Cedar City to the
A: It is
twelve miles south of the road.
do you leave the road going from Parowan to the Meadows, to go to Harmony?
leave it two and a half miles below Cedar City.
it is off to the left as you are going?
would be within seven miles of the north end of the Meadows, where my ranch
was the condition of the Meadows at that time, with regard to being a good
stopping place for travelers?
that time it had a very luxuriant growth of grass all over the valley, and
springs at each end. It was considered a good stopping place for companies,
and was occupied by myself and two or three others at the north end. We had
then formed a settlement called the Clara.
this conversation that you had with Mr. Lee, did he say anything to you
about the manner in which, or by whom, the men had been drawn into that
massacre? If he did, will you state all he said, in your own way?
was a long while ago, but I recollect him telling we that there were white
men there, and that they didn't know what they were going for until they got
there, and some would not act and some would.
do you know about the disposition of the property of those emigrants
was none on the Meadows when I got there, that I saw. I saw two or three
young men driving two or three hundred head of cattle, going to the Iron
Springs. Afterwards I saw them on the Harmony range - that drove of Texas
range was the Harmony range?
belonged to the Harmony settlement - the citizens of Harmony.
you know of Mr. Lee using any of those cattle, butchering or using any of
had charge of them.
Q: To save time and
trouble, we will admit the corpus delicti.
Of course it is understood that counsel cannot admit anything against his
client in a criminal case. But there will be no question raised about it. It
is an undisputed fact that something like one hundred and twenty people were
killed about that time and at that place. And that the number of people
charged in the indictment were killed there will be no question. That they
were killed at that place there will be no question. We will never argue
before any court that there has not been a killing as charged in the
indictment, except that we will always argue that the defendant did not do
Calling your attention back to that conversation, I will ask you to tell the
court and jury, in your own way, what Mr. Lee told you in regard to his
personal participation in that killing, if he told you anything?
I believe I told it here yesterday - that he spoke of white men being
engaged in it, and that he made an attack at daylight; that he could not
keep the Indians back. They were so mad because one of their men got killed,
and another wounded, that he led the attack and got a bullet through his hat
and another through his shirt. The talk was something like this: They went
out there to watch the emigrants and see that they should not get their
outfit from the outlying settlements; that the Indians made the attack at
daylight, and one of them got killed and another wounded, and that raised
their temper to such a pitch that they went for him and compelled him to
lead the attack, which he did once or twice once anyway - and got the
bullet through his hat and one through his shirt. The, emigrants were so
strongly entrenched they could do nothing with them. And afterwards they
were under the necessity of decoying them out with a flag of trace. And they
came along in the Meadows to where the Indians were lying in ambush, and
they rose up and massacred them. The emigrants were unarmed.
what else he told you?
he spoke of many little incidents.
Mention any of those incidents?
were two young ladies brought out.
A: By an
Indian Chief at Cedar City, and he asked him what he should do with them,
and the Indian killed one and he killed the other.
the story as he told you.
is about it.
were those young girls brought from - did he say?
a thicket of oak brush, where they were concealed. It was an Indian Chief
from Cedar City.
just what he said about that.
Indian killed one and he cut the other one's throat, is what he said.
cut the other's throat?
me what Mr. Lee said; state the circumstances of that killing, what
conversation passed between that Indian Chief and Lee, and the conversation
between the woman and himself?
don't know that I could.
Q: Tell all you can
remember about it; you say the Chief brought him the girls. I think I have
told it about all. Go over it again; tell us all the
details of the conversation of the killing.
he said they were all killed - all, as he supposed; that the Chief of Cedar
City then brought out the young ladies.
did he say the Chief said to him?
what he should do with them.
else did the Chief say?
said they didn't ought to be killed.
the Chief say to Lee why they should not be killed?
he said they were pretty and he wanted to save them.
did he tell you that he said to the Chief?
According to the orders that he had that they were too old and too big to
Q: Then what did he say took place - what did he say he told the Chief to
Chief shot one of them.
he say he told the Chief to shoot her?
said he told him to.
did he say the girl did when he told the Chief to shoot her?
she cover her face?
he didn't say she covered her face.
he say she pulled her bonnet down over her face?
didn't tell me so.
did he say were by when that shooting took place?
Indians standing round - a good many.
the Chief shot that one did he tell you what the other one said or did to
don't think Mr. Lee did tell me.
he tell you himself who killed the other one?
told you that he said it was a Cedar City Chief that killed one.
killed the other?
did it, he said.
threw her down and cut her throat.
he tell you what she said to him?
did tell you that?
Indians told me a good many things.
Didn't Mr. Lee tell you that she told him to spare her life, and she would
love him as long as she lived?
didn't tell me that.
you ascertain in that conversation, or subsequently, where it was that they
I got home I asked my Indian boy, and he went out to where this took place,
and he saw two young ladies lying there with their throats cut.
old was he?
A: Sixteen or
Q: What was the condition of those bodies?
A: They were rather
in a putrid state; their throats were cut; I didn't look further than that.
Q: What were their ages?
A: Looked about fourteen or fifteen.
Q: At what point were
their bodies from the others?
A: Southeast direction, towards some thickets of oak.
Q: How far off?
A: About fifty yards.
Were those bodies up a little ravine, a little way?
Yes, on a rise of ground.
What were their ages, about?
Thirteen to fifteen, I would suppose.
you learn from the children, or from any other source, their names?
Well, I suppose I did.
Q: What name?
A: There was a little
girl at my house, I found with my family that was in that company; she said
their names were Dunlap; she claimed to be their sister.
old was she?
Eight years old, she said.
Q: Did you go up there
and find those bodies yourself, with the assistance of the Indian boy?
A: I walked over the
ground, looked at it all pretty much and saw these two bodies.
Q: He told you where
those two bodies were to be found, did he?
A: Yes, sir. The others
had been buried slightly, but those two hadn't been; there was quite a
number scattering around there.
Q: What became of the
children of those emigrants? How many children were brought there?
A: Two to my house, and
several in Cedar City. I was acting subagent for Forney. I gathered the
children up for him; seventeen in number, all I could learn of.
Whom did you deliver them to?
Forney, Superintendent of Indian Affairs for Utah.
Were there any of the wagons or other property burned there on the ground?
never saw any sign of burning, and never heard of any being burned.
Cross examined –
What day in September was it that you had this conversation with John D.
Lee, about seven or eight miles this side of Fillmore?
don't recollect the date, I left the city about the 14th, and came directly
was present at that conversation?
man by the name of Bishop.
That was not me?
that man had two good eyes, and you have but one.
What Bishop was that, was he a Mormon Bishop?
he was not a Mormon Bishop; he was a merchant. He had been hauling goods
from California, and dealing here some in these settlements.
you give me his other name?
sir; I never heard it.
it Jesse Bishop?
don't know his other name.
Q: Lee told you and
this man Bishop all about it - got you two together and told you?
A: I don't think Bishop
heard the conversation, or much of it.
Bishop hear any of it?
don't know that he did, or that he didn't.
Then why did you say that he told you and this man Bishop?
said he was there.
Q: You heard the
A: Yes, I heard it; but
I don't know as any other man heard it.
Q: There was a man
present by the name of Bishop?
A: He was in the same
Q: Where were you at
the time this conversation took place?
A: I was five or six
miles this side of Fillmore, at the Springs.
What time of day was it?
was afternoon sometime.
Which way was John D. Lee traveling at the time you saw him?
Going north, to the city.
were going South?
Q: Tell me what he said
about the orders that he had. You have said that he told the Chief to kill
the little girl, and that he killed the other, because his orders were that
they were all to be used up.
A: He said he had
orders to use up all that company that could tell tales.
Q: Where did he get
these orders from? Did he tell you that?
A: I told you no, that
I don't remember that he did.
you recollect that he didn't?
he did I don't recollect it.
Q: I want to get as
full a statement of facts as possible. I want you to tell me everything that
you think he said, or, that he did say. When did he tell you that he got
those orders from Cedar City?
A: It was my impression
that he got them from Cedar City, but I could not say what the man said
about it, but I had that idea.
Q: Who else did he tell
you was on the ground siding in this killing?
A: The names I don't
know as he mentioned. I think he mentioned Bishop Klingensmith being there.
mentioned Higbee being there.
Q: Who else did he
A: He mentioned my
brother being there, bringing some Indians there. He sent him word to bring
the Indians up there. Sent him word of this affair taking place, and for him
to go and get the Indians, and bring up the Clara Indians.
Q: Your brother, then,
brought the Indians to the Meadows, and then left there?
A: Yes, he told me so.
Now, how was it about the Indians making an attack about daylight? Were they
killed and another wounded?
A: Yes, sir.
That enraged the Indians, and so Lee led the next attack?
do you mean were so enraged - the Indians?
A: Yes, the Indians. He claimed the idea that he had to do it to save his
own life. They were very mad, and wanted him to help use up that company.
Q: Did he not tell you
in that same conversation that he tried to appease the Indians and keep them
from attacking the train?
A: I don't remember
just the words, but he said he could not keep them from attacking them just
Didn't he tell you that he tried to keep them off?
don't think so. I think he said he could not keep them off.
Q: Did he say anything
about the Indians calling him any names because he would not go?
A: He went off towards
the Clara and cried, and they called him crier - yah gauts.
did they call him this?
Because he cried.
That was before he led the attack?
you positive that he told you that he cut that woman's throat?
Yes, I am positive of that, or I would not have told it.
long is it since you have told anybody that John D. Lee had told you that?
has been about three seconds.
Q: Where have you lived
since the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
A: My family has been
at the Clara the most of the time; the last six years have been at Kanab.
have lived in Utah all that time?
home has been in Utah.
That has been your home?
home has been in Utah.
Q: Didn't Lee tell you
more than you have told? Didn't he tell you about a Council that was held on
the field before the massacre?
A: He told me. We had a
good deal of conversation about it.
Q: Tell me if he did
not inform you that a Council was held on the field, on Mountain Meadows, by
the people from Cedar City, before the massacre, and that he opposed the
killing of the emigrants until he found that he could do no good?
A: After we had talked
some time I asked the necessity of such a thing, or why it was, and he told
me that he had orders to do so.
Q: Did he not tell you
that there was a Council held there at the Meadows, and that it was then
decided that they should be killed?
A: No, I never heard
that there was a Council held there to make any decision, or to decide
anything but the subject or counseling how to decoy them out.
counseled with them?
There was Klingensmith, the Bishop of Cedar City.
Q: Who else counseled
A: I think he said John
M. Higbee. I am satisfied it was.
Q: Did he tell you how
long before the massacre it was that they talked this over?
A: I don't think that
Q: You were a subagent
and Indian interpreter at that time, were you not?
A: Right away after
that Forney appointed me as subagent. At that time I was no agent, nor in
any particular office, unless a missionary in the south country to establish
some settlements on the Clara.
Q: What reason did Lee
give you in that conversation for the killing of the emigrants? He must have
given you some reason why it was necessary to commit such a deed?
A: I asked what called
for it, why they did it. He said that attack at daylight would have thrown
censure upon this people.
people that were living here.
you mean the whites that were living here at the time?
on and tell all he said. I want you to make it as bad as you can tell all
that you said, all that he said?
would not undertake that.
Q: Tell all that you
can recollect? I have, the substance of it? There must have been a good deal
said about the reasons for doing this thing?
A: The cause that he
always gave to me was that which I told you. That after they came through
there and behaved very rough, and said that they helped kill old Joe Smith,
and were going to be ready there at the Meadows when their teams got
recruited, and when Johnston commenced on the north end, they would on the
south end, and he was asked by authority - Haight or Dame - to go and watch
those emigrants and see that they didn't molest those weak settlements. When
I asked him what it was for - that in doing so, when they got there the
Indians made this attack at daylight.
Q: The Indians then
made the first attack?
A: He said they made it
voluntarily - they made the first attack.
spoke of General Johnston's army marching towards Utah. Where was it?
Fort Bridger then.
Q: Who was it
understood that Johnston was understood to be marching against them?
A: The understanding
and feeling was that he was marching against the Mormons as a people, Church
or nation, and was going to try to burst up the whole concern. That was what
Q: You expected, then,
that Johnston with the army of the United States, was leading that army
against this people?
A: Yes, sir.
With the intention of exterminating them or compelling them to abandon their
Yes, sir, that was my belief - to do away with the Mormon religion.
Q: How long before that
had it been that this same feeling of fear or anxiety had been felt by this
people, occasioned by Johnston's approach?
A: I think it had been
two or three months, it had come south at the time. I think it was the 24th
of July when a celebration was held in one of the canyons, that word came
that Johnston was on his way.
Q: After that 24th of
July, did that report have any effect on this people to cause them to
organize as a military people?
A: No, that was
organized before that, as far as I knew and was acquainted with the counsel.
Q: From that time on up
to the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, tell me if the people were
organized as a militia, and enrolled as such?
A: The instructions we
had from George A. Smith, who was sent as representing President Young's
mind, was to save everything like breadstuff, and use it when we wanted it.
Q: Did the people ever
meet and drill, have exercises and musters, so as to make them understand
the use of arms, and make them familiar with military tactics?
A: Yes, sir, there used
to be drills, sometimes, those days.
Q: Was it not a general
occurrence for them to meet and drill?
A: Yes, they drilled at
Fillmore and Cedar - I don't know about Harmony - using as much effort as
possible to perfect themselves in military tactics. They were always doing
that; they did that in Illinois.
Q: Did you not understand that all the men between eighteen and
sixty years of age were enrolled in the militia?
Yes, I understood it so.
was the highest military officer in this division?
William H. Dame was first in command in the southern country. He was Colonel
of the Iron Militia, as I understood it. I was out a good deal.
Q: Who was the highest
military officer at Cedar City?
A: Well, that I could
not testify to, but I think it was Isaac C. Haight, but I would not testify
to it, because I don't know.
Q: State if you know
whether John M. Higbee belonged to the militia or not?
A: Well, he belonged to
the militia, but whether as private or officer, I don't know.
Q: How many men did
John D. Lee tell you had gone from Cedar City to the Mountain Meadows, and
that were present at the time of the Massacre?
A: Well, if he told me
I have forgotten.
Q: Did you ever have a
conversation with him, or with any other person, as to how many or about how
many were there?
A: No, I don't know
that I had. I heard there was something like fifty in all from Cedar City
and from below there, but that is nothing but an idea - not founded on fact
Q: You spoke about Lee
telling you that there was a necessity for killing those young girls,
because they were older than those that his orders permitted him to save.
State now, if he did not tell you in that conversation some reason for the
killing of the grown people.
A: The reason was what
I told you.
Q: Did he not say that
if they were permitted to go they would tell the tale in California, about
what had been done there by the Mormons?
A: His talk was and his
excuses were that it would be a bad thing for the people here in Utah, if
it was known, and got out in such a troublous time. It would bring much
trouble on the Mormons as a people.
Q: Was not that trouble
to come from their notifying the people of California of what had been done?
A: Well, yes. When I
interrogated him about that he said - I think he said - it would have a
tendency to bring trouble from California.
Q: Did he not tell you
that that was the understanding of the people, that if they were permitted
to go, that it would call an army from the south, and that was the reason
these instructions were sent as they were?
A: He didn't say
anything about the people.
he not tell you why the instructions came to him as they did?
did not tell who it came from, he said he did it by authority.
Q: Did he not tell you
that he did it by authority and the reason that authority gave was that
these parties, if permitted to go, would raise a war cloud in California?
A: I don't know as he did. He said it would lead to bringing an
army down upon liS; that is what he told me.
he tell you anything further?
think I have told you all that was important that John D. Lee said.
Q: Did not John D. Lee
tell you in that same conversation, that after the Indians made the attack
the first time, that one or more men started from the emigrant camp for
Cedar City, and met some men going to the emigrant camp from Cedar City;
that they met at the springs, and that then Young Aiden was killed by
William C. Stewart?
A: He gave me an
account of it.
Tell me what he said about it?
can't do that.
Q: Then give the
substance of it.
A: It would be from
memory, and there might be an error in it. He told me - he spoke of three
men starting back to go to Cedar City to get assistance and to give
information of what was going on after the first Indian attack. During that
time there were three men went out in the night, and one was killed at
Little Pinto, four miles this side of the Meadows. I don't know who he said
killed them. I don't know as he said that he knew. I think one was killed
there, and the other got back to their camp. They wounded one in the night,
and the thought was this would lead to trouble if they were permitted to go,
on account of this man being wounded and telling how it was done, and what
had happened in the past, was about his language; what had happened would
lead to bringing trouble, perhaps an army on the southern people, and
especially that action at the springs, in the killing that man.
Lee tell you who was at the springs at that time?
if he did, I don't remember.
he say this to you - that it was understood by the authorities that one man
was wounded at the springs, and one man killed by Stewart, and if those
people were permitted to go to California they would notify the people of
California that the whites had made an attack in conjunction with the
Indians; that they would lead an army from the south and west, and that for
safety they considered it necessary as a war measure to kill those people?
think he told you that, Mr. Bishop. I told you that when I asked him, he
told me that that would lead to bringing an army here. I am satisfied that
is what he said. But as to the particulars of the killing at Little Pinto I
could not say, only that a man was killed there and one wounded, and they
had got back; that the attack at daylight was the cause of the emigrants
Q: Mr. Hamblin, have
you now detailed to the jury all of the conversation that you had with John
D. Lee, at the time that you met him seven or eight miles this side of
A: I think I have, that
I recollect distinctly enough to mention here. I may think of something
Q: You say you saw some
of the cattle on the Harmony range. How many people used that range for
A: I think something
like twenty families.
you know who took charge of the stock immediately after the massacre?
met two young men driving it - between two and three hundred head.
They lived at Cedar City. I did not know them. They said they were going to
drive them to the Iron Springs, and then afterwards I learned that John D.
Lee took them.
Q: Who were those young
A: I do not know. I was
not acquainted with them. I was not much acquainted at Cedar City. They
lived there, they said.
far did you live from Cedar City at that time?
family was then twenty-eight miles from Cedar City, at the Meadows.
you spend any time at Cedar City soon afterwards?
When I came through I stopped about ten minutes. I was on an express.
Q: Where were you
carrying the express?
A: I was going to overtake another company. Colonel Dame was
afraid they would jump into them, and wanted me to go and see to it.
Q: Afraid who would
jump into them?
A: The Indians.
Q: Where did you get
A: From him.
Q: Where at?
A: At Wild Cat Canyon,
eight or ten miles north of here.
Q: That was when you
were coming from Salt Lake?
A: That was.
Q: After you had left
John D. Lee?
A: Yes, sir.
were you carrying that express to?
the Indians - if there were any. He said he had learned they were following
up this company.
Q: What company?
A: The company that was
following up the company that was massacred. They were stopped here a while,
and the Indians wounded one, or killed one, or something.
Q: Have you ever given
this conversation that you had with Lee, to any one, to the public
generally? I do not ask if you have stated it to the counsel in the case,
but to others?
A: I have no recollection of it.
Have you ever given it to any court or jury, or given a statement of it?
sir, not at all - not until now.
Q: Have you ever given
a report of it to any of your superiors in the Church, or officers over you?
A: Well, I did speak of
it to President Young and George A. Smith.
you give them the whole facts?
gave them some more than I have here, because I recollected more of it.
When did you do that?
Pretty soon after it happened.
are certain you told it fuller than you have told it here on the stand?
told them everything I could.
else did you tell it to?
have no recollection of telling it to any one else.
Q: Why have you not
told it before this time?
A: Because I did not
feel like it.
Q: Why did you not feel
like it? You felt and knew that a great crime had been committed, did you
A: I felt that a great
crime had been committed. But Brigham Young told me that "as soon as we can
get a court of justice, we will ferret this thing out, but till then don't
say anything about it."
There have been courts of justice in this territory ever since that time?
have never seen the effects of it yet. I have seen it tried.
Q: Then this to the
first time you have ever felt at liberty to tell it?
A: It is the first time
I ever felt that any good would come of it. I kept it to myself until it was
called for in the proper place.
feel now that the proper time has come?
Q: I presume you have
talked it over with friends, and they advised you that this would be a good
time and place to tell it?
A: I had an idea that
if I came here that it would be a pretty good place to tell it.
in pursuance of that idea you are going on to tell it?
A: Yes, sir.
you certain that you have told all that you know about it?
am certain that I know all I tell.
Answer the other part?
think I have, all that is important.
Have you told it all?
No, sir, I have not.
Then tell it?
A: I will not undertake that now. I would not like to undertake
long have you known John D. Lee?
Between thirty and forty years.
long is it since Mr. Lee ceased to be so ardent in his feelings and
religious zeal that he was willing to run the risk he did down there at the
Mountain Meadows, to defend his religion?
I knew of him, he was always pretty zealous in what is called Mormonism - he
was at that time.
is it now?
object to the question; it is not expected that a man shall be called a
criminal for giving up his belief in such a Church. It is wholly foreign to
the question at issue.