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Well popular culture via the movies always presented the dangers of the west as being "the Indian" but I now see it was the Wild Morman we should fear.... Not too much record of crazy non secular types out in the west terrorizing wagon trains and immigrants. This little peice of history should be brought up everytime the missionaries drop by for a visit. Hey its like Nazi's coming for a visit? Come on LDS and owe up to some of the other uglier parts of your history and quit acting like you were always the victims. Remember God... oh I forgot for you "cultists" Heavenly Father owns history... not the Church. To hide and deny is only to lie! God is love and truth, if you are spouting off anything else its something else than what you claim... that is if you mean to be honest?
Would like to visit soon
Around and above this grave I caused to be built of loose granite stones, hauled from the neighboring hills, a rude monument, conical in form and fifty feet in circumference at the base, and twelve feet in height. This is surmounted by a cross hewn from red cedar wood. From the ground to top of cross is twenty four feet. On the transverse part of the cross, facing towards the north, is an inscription carved in the wood. "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." And on a rude slab of granite set in the earth and leaning against the northern base of the monument there are cut the following words: "Here 120 men, women, and children were massacred in cold blood early in September, 1857 . They were from Arkansas." Brevet Major J. H. Carleton, U.S.A. May 25, 1859 ---------------------------------------------- May 25 [1861] A very cold morning much ice on the creek. I wore my great coat & mittens. We visited the Mt. Meadows Monument not up at the burial place of 120 persons killed by Indians in 1857. The pile of stone was about twelve feet high but beginning to tumble down. A wooden cross is placed on top with the following words, Vengeance is mine and I will repay saith the Lord. Pres. Young said it should be Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little. (The Mountain Meadows Massacre, by Juanita Brooks, University of Oklahoma, p. 182). ---------------------------------------------- Romans 12:19 ...for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. ---------------------------------------------- Mormon 3:15 Vengeance is mine, and I will repay; and because this people repented not after I had delivered them, behold, they shall be cut off from the face of the earth.
God will make the final judgement.
In his post on Jan. 04, 2005, Charles Walch forgot to include those that out of ignorance, prejudice or malice, heap slander upon an innocent people for the crime of a few. But I don't ask God to punish these or anybody else. God in His wisdom and justice, far above human's, will deal with each appropriately without any help from us. What I humbly do ask God is for Him to enlighten us all, so that we can realize that only those physically present at the event really know what happened and why, and the rest is speculation.
Perhaps Mr. Stewart is referring to Cove Fort, about 5 miles south of Corn Creek and 20 miles north of Beaver, just off I-15. The emigrant train camped at Corn Creek where they also bought corn from Kanosh. If I recall correctly, this is where George Albert Smith camped 40 yards from the doomed party.
May God punish those who did those terrible things. And May God punish those who proclaim false innocence of those who are guilty.
Thank you for posting this information. My relatives are from Johnson and Newton County, Arkansas and we've long believed that a few of them were lost in this tragedy. With some notable exceptions, the Hamiltons, Hudson, and Bashams were poor families in this area and often intermarried.
For Mr. Stewart: The Mountain Meadows Memorial site has no "Fort." There are two separate monuments erected there in the Meadows in rememberance of the several Arkansas emigrant trains that were massacred there on their way to California, but there has never been a Fort. I think you must have visited something else. We hope you will have an opportunity to come by to visit in the future, and you can find a map to the area on our website. Thank you for your comments and taking the time to share them. Lynnmarie Fancher, Secretary MMA
I viewed a TV program on the History Channel about the Massacre, and was trying to find out if this was a place my wife and I visited on an automobile trip last year. The "Fort" was just off an Interstate and was operated by Mormons. I really didn't know the Mormons had such a violent past. I thought they were somewhat like the Amish. Guess I was wrong in that assumption.
Hello, I`m from Poland. The site is very good. I`ve found a lot of information about Beller`s family. I live in south-west part of Poland (small town called Polkowice). I would like to know that my family in Poland is the part of German`s family. If You know somethink about it please write to me. Magda Beller
Just finished Sally Denton's "American Massacre". Tragic, just tragic.
This site is still pretending there's not a book about the massacre called "Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows." Odd, because it won best book awards from Westerners International, the Western Writers of America, the Denver Public Library, and the Western History Association. "While the word 'definitive' is often overused," Brigham Madsen wrote in the Western Historical Quarterly, "this account of the killings merits that distinction." What is the MMA afraid of? The truth? Will Bagley
My Great Great Grandfather was James Pinkney Springs Beller Brother of Daviid W. and Mallisa Ann Beller.
This site is confusing as is the whole story of the "massacre". Why is this association refusing to allow the Cherokee descendants to perfom their ceremony? And why would the Cherokees take blame for the massacre if they didn't do it? Could it have been they were justified and only protecting themselves from white "settlers" and this association wants to cover up the imperialistic racist nature of thier so-called innocent ancestors?
I read American Massacre by Sally Denton and I can not understand why the Mormons will not admit the truth at this date.
Thank you for your efforts toward preserving our history.
Steven E. Farley's book on the "Mormon Mountain Meadows Massacre" is one that every one needs to read, on this subject. http://www.authorhouse.com
My wife Shana and our children visited the memorial site on September 11th, 2004 enjoying warmer weather this time, when last time we vistited in January of 2002. It is far more pleasurable to visit the site during warm weather, especially if you have young children. The area looked great. It was good to see the green meadows this time as opposed to snow and brown pastures. Brian Cy Baker U.S. Army
I LIVE IN IDAHO AND HAVE BEEN STUDYING THE MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE. I INTEND TO VISIT THERE THIS SUMMER TO GIVE MY RESPECT TO THE PEOPLE BURIED THERE. I DO FEEL YOUNG WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE DEATHS. THE MORMON CHURCH HAS NO RIGHT TO OWN THIS PROPERTY . THIS SHOULD BE OWNED BY THE DESENDENTS OF THESE PEOPLE. HOW IRONIC THAT THE MURDERES SHOULD OWN THIS LAND HOW SICKENING. MY MOTHER WAS A SMALL GIRL IN COLORADO AND SHE USED TO HEAR THE STORY THAT MORMONS OR WHITE INDIANS WERE ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR MASACRE ROCKS LOCATED IN IDAHO BY AM. FALLS IDAHO. HAVE YOU THOUGHT OF BUYING THIS PROPERTY I WISH YOU COULD.
The entire site of the massacre should be made accessable to the descendants and the public. Privately owned sections should be bought by the Mormon Church and ceded to public domain, it's the least they should do. Epitaphs of the murdered should not be written by the murderers or their "holier than thou" descendants. That is the ultimate insult. The land ceded could be considered partial penance and payback for mass murder and looting of the dead. To those who say "Its time to forgive and time to heal" I say you can't forgive somebody for something they won't admit to or apologize for. It's time for a clear and concise apology and not all the half- way, maybe, who knows, beating around the bush, cop-out nonsense. THEN we can forgive and heal. Until then, the Mormon Church should have the decency to remove themselves from this hallowed, blood-soaked ground. I'm sure the slaughtered innocents of Mountain Meadows wouldn't want to be memorialized by the Mormon Church anymore than the slaughtered innocents of Auschwitz would want to be memorialized by the Nazi Party. It's time for all parties concerned and even Mormons who think for themselves to stand up and demand that the Mormon Church do the right thing.
I do not wish to judge, and feeling that no one can completely comprehend the motives of either party, I make only a few comments. Sense we were not there, then how can we place blame. I do know that several native Americans were killed eating poisoned meat. I can also relate to a group of families feeling their life or way of live may have been endangered. Now, much is said about John D. Lee and the Mormon Church. If Mr. Lee thought he was protecting his family and community, then perhaps it is time to forgive. If high ranking church leaders were involved, then they too, were trying to protect the same. Whatever the cause, I think it is time to heal. The Lord will be the final judge.
I am seeking information on the involvement of my great-great-grandfather, James Holt Haslam, in the MMM. I have read various, conflicting reports over the years, and the family story is that he rode from MM to Salt Lake AFTER the massacre to bring the news to Brigham Young that the massacre was NOT the work of Indians, but Mormons. Other accounts have him bringing a message of unknown contents to Brigham Young BEFORE the massacre. It is also alleged that this ride constitutes the longest non-stop horseback ride in Utah history. Any clarification on Haslam's involvement would be greatly appreciated.
I am recintly retierd and became interested in the mountain medows tragity after reading an artical in my local newspaper after the winter olympics in saltlake. After reading that,the Mountain Medows was close to Ceader City we decided to stop and see it on the way to Las Vegas. the attendent at the site recomended Junita Brooks " The Mountain Massarce ". I have read that book and "A morman Chronicle The Diaries of John D. Lee" & "the Writings of Jhon D. lee" and amabout to read "John Doyle Lee Zelot, Pioneer, Builder, Scapegoat" by Juanita Brooks. Thank you ,Ben Bours Denver CO.
Seventeen Children Survived Massacre
http://www.amarillo.com/stories/112204/new_614455.shtml
Eye of the Beholder
http://www.amarillo.com/stories/112204/new_reason.shtml
Bishop Lee
http://www.utlm.org/images/mountainmeadows/mountainmeadowsp46.jpg
FURTHER DETAILS - FROM MAJOR CARLETON'S REPORT.
Broken/Bad Link removed
Alexander Fancher was a great-great-great Uncle of mine! I hve the book and tonight I thought I'd see what was on the web re: the massacre. Nice site.
My great grandmother had a brother who was last heard from in a letter advising that he had joined the Francher Train and was heading for California. He had a sister, Almyra Johnson, who was born in 1825 in Ludlowville, Tompkins County, New York. Another sister was named Clara, probably born in 1827. Clara was my great grandmother. She may have been born in Crawford County, Pennsylvania. At some point, both sisters moved to Ashtabula County, Ohio.
>Greetings! >I am a history major at the University of Arkansas, Fort Smith. One of my Instructors just recently introduced the story of the Fancher family. It is sad, but I agree with Officer Carleton's testimony;This story never needs to fade away.When you think about it, 1857 is not that far into the past.There are some Mormons who would like for this story to stay in the shadows, however,it happened, and needs to be as well known as Hernando de Cortes. Thank you for this website. Thank You, cwhits00@uafortsmith.pipeline,educwhits00@uafortsmith.edu
I am searching for family members. where I live no one knows the name Fancher. I want to know its history. Where did it come from, why are there not alot of fanchers. just give me an email if you have any info. Or if you can help me find my family tree cause I dont know anyone in my family.
back up online after a move to south carolina..would be great to hear from my kin.
The MMM is such a tragic event in our nation's history. My sincere best wishes to those whose hearts are still burdened.
John D. Lee http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site297/20041025__UT_JOHNDLEE_1025~1_200.JPG ,an icon of the Utah territories,lives in infamy. http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_2432229
Keep up the good work. Don't ever let this bit of history be changed.
I visited Mountain Meadows last week and was greatly moved by the experience. However, I was surprised that the actual site of the massacre is privately owned. It seems that this is sacred ground and should be part of the monument. The visitor should be able to retrace the last steps of the Fancher party. C. Hoekzema
I would like to findout if i am a related to the tackett side of this if someone could please let me know how to find out. Thanks Johnny Lynn Tackett
I am a great grandaughter of Martha Elizabeth Baker one of the 17 children who survived. My mother, Betty Pinkston, is one of her grandaughters and she is still living at the age of 81. Feel free to contact us concerning the event or the Baker Family Tree.
I'm contacting to correspond regularly. 905 540- 3985
I'm contacting to correspond regularly. 905 540- 3985
My mother told me about the massacre when I was a child. Her mother's family was from Salt Lake City (they were not Mormon). Someone in the family, perhaps her grandfather, owned a book or other document about the massacre. His house was broken into and the book stolen. The family always believed that the burglary was the work of Mormans wishing to surpress the story. At least that's how I remember it. I was a young child when my mother spoke of it, and she died in 1988, so it's been years... I wish she had lived to know of these recent events, she would have been most interested.
Even though neither my husband nor I are descended from anyone involved in the Mountain Meadows incident, we have become very interested in the history of it. Our brother-in-law is a descendent of the Beller family and we have learned a lot about it through his research. All of us who live in America owe a lot to our forefathers who pioneered this country and made it possible for us to have the wonderful country we have to live in today. This event is a vital part of the history of some of the price that was paid for our being able to live in the comforts we have today. Our country isn't perfect; but it's the best anywhere. I, for one, am grateful for learning about this sorrowful time. It makes me appreciate more what heartaches and hardships our forefathers endured. Thanks for this information.
My great-great grandfather was Captain John T. Baker, one of the leaders of the ill-fated wagon train. If anyone is interested in the newly formed descendants organization, I would be happy to hear from you.
Court TV's Crime Library: NOTORIOUS MURDERS/MASS & SPREE MURDERS. "THE MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE" http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meadows/index.html#continues
My ancestors were Scottish immigrant coal miners living in the Cedar City area in support of the Iron Mission at the time of the massacre. Their names were Robert and William Nish or Neish. Also in their company was a brother in law with the last name Hutchison. They arrived in Utah in 1856 and would have been largely unfamiliar with the local traditions and cultures. I have wondered for years whether these men may have somehow been duped into participating in the massacre (i.e told they were needed to bury the dead, etc.). We have no written history covering this portion of their lives, except to know that they left Cedar City after the dissolution of the Iron Missiona and moved to northern Utah and San Bernadino, California. I was wondering if the Mountain Meadows Association has any information either implicating or exonerating these men. As always, my sympathy goes out to the dead, survivors and descendants of the massacre victims. I hope that there is enough healing power in God's love to bring them peace. Thank you, Randall Nish
My Great,Great Grandmother was Elizabeth C. Beller from Carroll County Arkansas. She lost three siblings in this tragic event, Melissa Beller, Minerva Beller-Baker, and David W. Beller, along with numerous other family members. I have quite a bit of information on the Beller, Baker, and Fancher families. I have read many books and articles on this event and can honestly say the absolute truth will probably never come to light. I too lost distant relatives as a result of the attack, but am glad to say I have no hard feelings towards anyone believed to be involved. God knows the truth and that is all that matters to me!
A very moving site and story that was lost in our history until recently.
I was on the Board as one of the descendents. Emberson and William were both survivors and both along with their older brothers (2), father, aunts and unc were of Native descendents (Ch . A ceremony would be wonderful.
Was interested in the site and the story.
Minerva Jane Hudson born 13 Dec 1832 in AR was married to William Edward Wood, Minerva was pregnant and did not go with her husband William Edward Wood. Minerva Jane Hudson was my 1st cousin 3 times removed.
I just heard about Mt. Meadows, I am from Mt. View, Arkansas, my maden name is Stalcup my grandfather never would talk about his family. We were told that we had Cherokee blood, but he never would tell us anything else. He left my grandmother and her children and changed his name I think Jones and was gone several years. I guess he just came back one day, but no one could find out anything. I was to young to remember much about him. Every one else that might know something is dead. I love your site I sure wish I could have seen the History Channel. Does anyone know where I could get a copy? Thank you Betsy Crispell
Phillip Klingonsmith is my g.g.g.grandfather., He was the bishop of Cedar city and was one who along with John d. lee was tried and executed for the crime., I have alot of geneology about it and have studied it for most of my life either from stories from family or books., I feel compassion and deep sympathy.
PAIUTE POSITION ON CHEROKEE HEALING CEREMONY As published in the Spectrum 9/10/04 Friday, September 10, 2004 Opinion Paiutes may have to pay for Cherokees' rites -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GUEST EDITORIAL My name is Glenn Rogers, and I am the elected band chairman of the Shivwitts Band of Southern Paiutes. The Shivwitts are one of five bands that make up the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah. I write this because I am outraged that an article titled "Cherokees begin rites at Mountain Meadow" warranted the front page on the Sept. 8 edition of The Spectrum. Southern Paiute people have not officially offered an opinion on the Mountain Meadow Massacre. It has been our choice not to offer an opinion because our oral histories tell us that we were not involved. Over the years, the stories and explanations have changed, while we stay true to what has been passed down to us by our elders. Those before us knew that what took place on the other side of the mountain would only cause them grief. My personal family history tells of the shooting and screams coming from across the mountains. After the massacre, our Paiute people were killed as a direct result of the accusations that we were part of the killing. From my perspective, my people will again become victims of what the Cherokee do at the massacre site. Additionally, their chief seems to be ignorant of our native ways because he failed to introduce himself to my people. It is proper protocol when entering another tribe's traditional land to respectfully gain authorization before offering any kinds of prayers of this magnitude. These people have done neither. Having any Paiute person present as a participant does not signify our collaboration or approval of this event. My people have nothing to be forgiven for, nor do we need to forgive. In our belief, all of those who perished in the massacre have gone to our Creator and will live a life of abundance and joy with their relations. Those on this Earth who wish to perpetuate these negative feelings carry it with their spirit and it eventually destroys the good within. Release it and let it go. Glenn Rogers is chairman of the Shivwitts Band of Southern Paiutes. Originally published Friday, September 10, 2004
Found this website and I think it is awesome. I have been searching for Smith ancestors who left Arkansas sometime during 1850's, going to California on a wagon train. A Smith family was listed among the pioneers at MMM. Does anyone have any info on this Smith family?
I am putting together a book and documentary on what i call america's first 9-11.
Not only am I the Pastor of Living Waters United Methodist Church, but I am also a Motion Picture Screenwriter, and I am very intrested in this story, both sides of the issue. It’s a story of the old west that will soon be told, but how will it be told? I only want to be fair and know why and how it came about? I have read some books on the subject and the mystery gets deeper and deeper. If you know anything that would help or add to the story, please let me know. Pastor Kim at Plwumc@infowest,com. Thanks.
I was really surprised at all the information on this website. Keep up the good work.
Your explanations of the events and what led up to the massacre do not explain political, religious, or other beliefs and how they became what happened that day. Instead of explaining, the Association leaves explanations to writers, LDS and non-LDS, lapsed LDS and anti-LDS to explain, earning themselves thousands of dollars as the real purpose. This association is the most bipartisan of all, Cherokees included. Please, do not let anti and pro forces on the side of the church or the families involved tell the story. And please, do not deify those killed. Look what happened after 9/11, it is certainly not hallowed ground in New York or at Mountain Meadows. These were and still are viable living human beings like ourselves. They are probably embarrassed by the whole thing. Closure is a wrong headed mortal matter nota spiritual one.
Thank you for your beautiful website. It is a fitting tribute and memorial to all of the massacere victims.
May God give them peace,which I'm sure he already has and bestow his Blessings on all of those who are honoring these families.
SORRY:
I read the book about the "Mormon Mountain Meadows Massacre" by Steven E. Farley....I never new about this, what the Mormon's did to these people, in 1857 Utah. I feel sorry for 'them'. If any one would like to read this book you can find it at (www.authorbooks.com)
As a living descendent of the Mt. Meadow Massacre, I find what Ms. Bowen and the Cherokees are doing is a very noble and honorable thing. It's not a political statement, it's not a finger pointing thing. It's to heal the souls of all of the people involved. I feel that they don't need your permission, they have mine. They should be commended for their efforts. Their efforts are to heal, not put a bandaid on it or cover up this horrible tragedy. Thank you. Sincerely, Gary Hogan
HARRISON--This monument on Highway 7 south near Harrison marks the spot near Crooked Creek where a wagon train of Arkansas pioneers began their westward trek before being killed by Mormons on Sept. 11, 1857. A movie about the tragedy will be played Sept. 11 at the Lyric Theatre and The History Channel will air a documentary Dec. 15. irst_Name:
I am related to Albert Sidney Johnston, the general who was sent by the President to be a presence in Utah . Some call this action "Buchanan's Folly." I find the death of innocent families under a flag of truce, the shooting of a Federal Judge in the back and Brigham Young's misuse of office of Indian Affair's requesting that Indians attack Federal Troops at South Pass in 1857 ample grounds for U.S.Government intervention and far from "folly." Visiting Fort Bridger, Wyoming is about as delusional as Mountain Meadows. All facts have been covered up and strong protest is made by Mormons against any who differ in openion from their carefully crafted cover up. Healing can only come after confession and appologies offered.
Visited the site August 2004, have read several books since then on the massacre. Ashamed of the incident and the fact that my family used to be Mormons and my heritage. Understand to this day the church denies involvement!
New documentary for the history channel. http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2004/08/30/news/wyoming/736040367a8e80c287256f0000177fee.txt
I am researching Mountain Meadow Massacre a part of an Arkansas History paper. I'm a student at Pulaski Tech College in Little Rock. Thank you for making this material available
I dont think I have any family that was involved, but I am a follower of Western U.S.A. History, and I find this particular incident very interesting. great site,
Correction to my previous comment: The retaining wall is on the South/East side of the monument not the West side.
I am a Facilities Manager for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I oversee the maintenance of the Mountain Meadows site. I am responding to the comment made by Randy Strickland on August 23rd on the condition of the site. First, I would like to thank him for the feedback. We visit the site once or twice a week but feedback from visitors is very helpful. I do not regularly visit this web page but I was informed of his comments Tuesday, 8/24 and I immediately drove up to visit the site. We recently have done some construction work to improve the site. A large retaining wall was put in, to the west of the monument, to stabilize the hillside. Sections of the concrete pad surrounding the monument have been cracking and separating because of the ground movement. They have been replaced. Caution tape has been placed at both approaches to the new wall for the safety of visitors, until the project is completed and protective fencing is in place. Please respect the warning tape and do not approach the retaining wall area. The trucks and heavy equipment brought in for this work have unavoidably caused damage to some of the landscaping surrounding the monument. The final concrete was poured Monday 8/23; so, we can now begin to repair and restore the damaged areas. My inspection of the site showed that the path, bridge, and monument were well kept, free from weeds and litter, and the flag was still in good condition. The wrought iron fence and bridge were painted this spring and are still in good shape. The garbage can was approaching being full but was not overflowing and was still doing it's job. It was emptied. I noticed that there were some weeds encroaching on the gravel parking lot which we will remove and will have more weed control put down. For informational purposes, the church owned property is around the monument itself, mostly on the west side of the creek. The bridge, most of the path, the parking lot and road are not church owned. We have been happy to cooperate with the State, County and the Association in helping to maintain these areas. There are no restroom facilities provided by the church. The restrooms that have been under construction for over a year now are not a church project. I'm not sure who is supposed to be doing that but it seems to have stalled for some time. I do not know who ordered the "port-a-potties" that have also been there for a long time. They have not been serviced and are in a deplorable condition, filled and dried out. I called the local number on the unit to see who ordered it and the waste company didn't know either, but is going to try and find out. I don't know if they will service the units or remove them. Please do not come to the site expecting restroom facilities. I thank Randy for his observations and I hope other visitors will inform me through my e-mail if they have concerns regarding the Mountain Meadows site. I want it to always be a place of beauty, reflection, and respect for those buried there.
I hope that someday soon the MMM site will be properly excavated,analyzed and reported. I would like to offer any help I can to that effort. I am LDS and have allegiance only to the truth - "let the chips fall where they may."
Thank you for the invitation,but due to a past stroke I can't attend.But I can still pray and I do for the spirits of those who died there,that they are at peace.
I was watching a documentry about Glen and Bessie Hyde disappearing in the Grand Canyon. I began research on the internet. After several hours, I wound up here. In the mid 70's we lived in Boise, Idaho, we're a little bit familiar with the area. I hope the best for the families involved. And that they can settle their differences. I still haven't found any input from the Native Americans side of the story. A lot of things change with time.
I loved the site but I can say I did cry for those who lost their lives for such a wrong reason.
I visited the site August 23 and found the toilets completely full and the trash container full, construction tape around the rock cairn monument, toilets under construction. The monument notes that the LDS (Mormons) are maintaining the site, but this appears to be false. I feel for the familys of this atrocity. Sincerely Randy Strickland
There is Cherokee and Choctaw in my family tree and my Uncle Ellis Jergins (by marriage) was a full blood Cherokee.
I have just finished reading about this atrocity. I cannot believe that the members of this party have still not recieved a proper memorial. There has definitly been a white wash over the truth surrounding these events. I cannot imagine their horror and shall never forget these poor souls.
I WAS LOOKING FOR DESHAZO GENEALOGY AND CAME ACROSS YOUR SITE.HAD NOT HEARD OF THIS BEFORE. VERY INTERESTING! LINDA
I just saw the documentary BURYING THE PAST. Healing and forgiveness are wonderful, but I will always grieve that the descendants of the murder victims have their memorial owned and operated by the same religion that caused the original atrocity. This should not be a damage control project for the LDS Church. The Fancher Party needs to be given a very loud and permanent voice in the matter. It's as insulting as if you had Jewish ancestors killed in Hitler's death camps and found their remains in a Nazi cemetary(bad analogy considering the actual cremation of most holocaust victims.) Anyhow, it just seems sick and wrong that a former perpetrator should be able to sanitize and rewrite history. I can scarcely imagine how the descendants must feel--I'm an outsider and think it is outrageous and deeply insulting. What can people who feel this way do to help bring more justice to this situation? The population of ex-Mormons is growing at least as rapidly as the Mormon church itself. What a powerful political lobby that could be. I'm so sorry about all this. I was raised Mormon but am a proud apostate (funny what studying church history can do to you.) We should at least have a museum in Arkansas that gives a no holds barred view of this horror from the past. Sincerely, Grace Tippetts
Thank you for documenting our family and it's involvement in this portion of religous history.
Having traveled from Virginia to Washington, Utah for a family wedding, we visited the place where the statue of John Doyle Lee was conspicuous by it's absence. There is a base without a statue. We realize that now is the time for healing, and pray that the time will come when he is recognized for his gentle heart and great spirit rather than for the acts for which he paid the extreme penalty. God bless all who have desires for healing and reconcilliation. May a spirit of peace come to rest in the area of the massacre.
gggrandmother, Bertha Rutha Dunlap, was a half sister to Jesse Jr and Lorenzo. Beautiful and touching tribute. Thank you.
I visited the Mountain Meadows site in 1996 and was shocked and apalled at the fact that this deed had been hidden and ignored for so many years. I am grateful that something has been done to improve the sad site that I viewed on that visit.
I just would like to let you know how great your website is and that it is very informational. Thank You, April
shame on the mormons! -cold blooded ruthless killers of blameless, innocent children.
I hope the History channel does work on thie to be translated into Spanish. Thank you
Just finished reading the book "Under the Banner of Heaven" and was interested in more information on the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Impressive memorial and website.
I showed this site to my LDS stepson, up untill I showed him the pictures read the stories...he pretty much was calling me a LDS venom spreader. Now he's making excauses for the action of his beloved Mormons..."they would never do that." The LDS should take responsibliltiy...heaven knows they wont--it's always everyone elses fault. We're all out to get you Mormons..we make everything up. Look in the mirror god is holding it up!
I was at the Mountain Meadows Massacre site today (July 4, 2004) after reading extensively of the massacre. I thought it might be of interest to report that I found an artifact from this horrible event. I walked northwest of the site to the first hill- the only hill with lots of boulders on top. Here I found where bullets had struck boulders from below (the embattled pioneers) and also where stones had been placed to form a protective cover. It was here that I found, carefully tucked about 1 foot above the ground in the crevise of a boulder, the neck and top of a small glass jar, used in the 1800s for storing various medicines or opium dirivatives. Yours sincerely, BIll Mader, Ph.D
My ggggrandfather, Charles L. Wood, disappeared around the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. He married in Independence County in 1852 and after fathering two children left the family and was not heard from again. Family legend relates that he went to California to "the gold rush". Since there were some men in the wagon train with the surname Wood, two or three with unknown first names, I have wondered if Charles L. and perhaps some brothers were members of the party. If anyone has information about the Wood members of the wagon train, even the first names of the Wood's, please contact me at bjwood@ipa.net. Any information would be very much appreciated.
Welcome to all those who have the initiative to be informed of the truth. Please come and join us, September 7-11, 2004, for a healing ceremony that will be held at the site of the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Cherokee descendants, Paiute, Ute, and all others who are interested in participating in a truly overdo ceremony for those killed on the Mountain Meadow site. THANKS to Mr. Fancher for his and all other administrators of this site and all other sources of information they have provided the public. THANKS again to all those who will participate with us and those who will be there in spirit. Glen Griz Barrus 435 830-4647
My family lived in the Parowan, UT area in 1887 I have heard throughout my lifetime that my great-great grandfather Wm. Leany was beaten for giving vegetables to members of a wagon train. I have never heard that he left the LDS church because of the beating. I do know for a fact that two of his sons remained strong in the church and helped to spread the teachings of the Church into the southwest and his grandson, my grandfather, served an LDS mission in the southern states.
Mary C (Polly) Baker was my g-g-g-(g) grandmother thru the Stephenson line.
have 1887 county history book that indicates that Caleb Mills of Missouri was killed at MMM. would like to have some way to confirm that. any help appreciated
I never knew the appalling brutality of this crime. I read "American Massacre" by Denton and it is unbelieveable the people who did this were never punished. I'm just finishing a two year stint in Utah before returning to Montana this June, but I will find time to visit Mountain Meadows and pay my respects to the victims...so many children. It's obvious who was behind this and the fact that he can never be punished is disheartening.
We have visited the site and think you have really done a good job . We appreciate it.
We have visited the site and think you have really done a good job . We appreciate it.
As a 62 year old lifelong member of the LDS church I have known of the Mountain Meadows Massacre for many years as have most of the other LDS people I know and associate with. It was a tragedy as was the Hauns Mill Massacre. As was the attempted extermination of the Jews in Germany. As was the sexual abuse of children by priests of the Catholic church, also the attack on the adults and CHILDREN at the Branch Davidian Complex in Waco alsothe attack on the US by SOME Islamic people on 9/11. I do not hate all germans, all catholics, the entire US Justice Department or all muslims. Lets all examine our own purity and stop throwing mud to try to divert attention from our own sins.
My ancestor, Josiah Baker, was born May 15, 1807 in Kentucky; however, he was in Missouri in (at least) 1851, where his daughter, Jane, was born. I am looking for his family. In 1852, he came to Hopkins County Texas and there lived until his death in 1893. The subject of this site is very sad, especially the detailed reports, but I applaud its arrangement and the fact that this family is committed to the memory of their ancestors.
my dad (charles Beller) was born in stigler, ok. it is believed that his grandfather may be related some how. i am trying to look at the beller family information on this web site but can't get the beller information to load up for me.
I first heard about the Massacre on 5-16-04 when an AP article about the controversial statue of John D. Lee appeared in my local newspaper.I am dumbfounded once again by what people under the guise of religion can do to other people. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I have no doubt that God is very well aware of the horrors inflicted on the Arkansans by the Mormons. I send my sympathy to the decendents of both sides. Justice will be done by God one day soon. Thank you for making such a well organized and informative web site. I think it is excellent. Best regards, Kimetha C. Howard Blountville, TN
My grandma had told me we were related to John D. Lee and had recounted to me a little of the story. Thanks for the additional information so I could see what transpired. Great Web site.
Thank you for the continuing efforts to heal very old and deep wounds
We moved from St. George to Washington, UT. Soon after the move we received our utiity bill. Enclosed was a newsletter. There was an article about a bronze statue of J.D.Lee, that was to be erected in his honor, in the city square. Although I've only been in Utah four years, my wife lived in northern Utah for most of her life, before we married and moved to St. George. I called the mayor, twice, to complain about the erection of the statue. I was told that JDL did many great things for the City of Washington, and therefore deserved the statue. Several friends of mine also called with their complaints. We're all glad that such a statue was not erected, honoring a dishonorable man, such as JDL was.
Guess that my kin folks were too lazy to take part on this trip. Sad that those who did met the end that they did.
I have always been interested in History and in the 1980's I spent the summer reading the history of the Mormons. It was at that time I came across the MMM story. I was intrigued by the events, never dreaming I was connected in any way. While doing research on my family in 2002 I uncovered my connection to the Baker family.
My relative was going to CA to be married,at age 16, she was coming out of MO, she was on a wagon train that did not make the list in time to be added with the ones from AR,etc.
thank you
I just saw a news article in which the Washington UT City Council had voted not to display a $45,000 statue of John D Lee in a local historical area. Out of sight-out on mind.
I HAVE READ ALMOST ALL OF THE BOOK AND ARTICLES CONCERNING THE MMM AND BELIEVE I HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF THE EVENT AND CAUSES, BUT LIKE MANY EVENTS IN OUR HISTORY SIMPLE ANSWERS AND THE PERFECT TRUTH CAN NOT BE FOUND. ONE THING I HAVE DISCOVERED IS THAT THERE IS VERY LITTLE TO LINK LOCAL INDIANS AS TO ACTIVE PARTICIPATION. AS FOR JOHN D LEE, IF IT WAS NOT FOR HIS FAITH AND CONFIDENCE IN CHURCH AUTHORITY THAT RESULTED IN HIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE MMM, HE WOULD BE SEEN AS ONE OF THE FINEST EXAMPLE OF FRONTIER LEADERSHIP AND INDUSTRY. HE DID, HOWEVER, PERSONALLY PROFIT BY TAKING POSSESSION OF MOST OF THE WEALTH OF THE WAGON TRAIN, BUT HE WAS A MAN WITH MANY POSITIVE QUALITIES.
I am wondering if there is a movement underway to challenge the state of Utah so that the MMM site can be re-opened and the appropriate forensic evaluations be accomplished. What is happening?
How was the Poteet family involved?
It seems to me that John D. Lee was as much a victim as any member of the Fancher-Baker party!
I am a SASS (Single Action Shooting Socity) And have adopted the mountain man/army scout role. I am extremely facinated by the mountain men. J.Martin Alias Jeremiah Hawk
My family followed the same wagon train through a month later and also were attacked losing all but their lives and filed a claim through the indian depridation act and later collected a small token sum. In the statement of the claim a man party to the previous attack claimed to be a member of the same "mountain Meadows massacre". I am a decendant of Capt. Nicholas Turner wagon train master. Thanks.
I first learned about Mountain Meadows Massacre in an upper-division history class in college ca 1975. I did not learn the names of anyone involved at that time. My husband has many LDS relatives on his mother's side and we visited Salt Lake City in 1979. I wish that we had gotten to the MMM site, as we will probably not be back out that way again. I truly wish that the site would be taken over by the federal government as a national park. I do not believe the LDS Church to be the best caretaker of the site. President Hinckley should have gone ahead and admitted responsibility on the part of the LDS Church. I do not think there was ever any actual objective doubt of the Mormon perpetration of the massacre.
For a person who considers himself knowledgable in American history, I was amazed I had never heard of this atrocity before seeing the documentary "Burying the Past" at the Bare Bones Film Festival in Muskogee, Oklahoma. It has certainly rekindled my interest in western history.
The city of Washington, Utah, near St. George has commissioned four statues of prominent founders of the community. Three of the statues have been placed, but the statue of John D. Lee has created such controversy that its placement is uncertain. A most grave concern has been that erecting a statue of John D. Lee anywhere would offend the descendents of the Arkansas emigrants. Mr. Bylund of this association has expressed this concern to the Washington City Council. I do not pretend to be a historical expert on the massacre, but I offer my understanding and interpretation of the facts in hopes that it will help some to heal old wounds. I believe that feelings still smolder about the massacre because the emigrants’ families have never had the chance to deal with the whole truth. It is difficult to deal with the facts when you don’t know what facts to deal with. It is hard to forgive if you don’t first know whom to blame. Ordinarily, the criminal justice system provides some emotional help to crime victims by exposing the facts and pronouncing society’s judgment of them. Unfortunately, the criminal justice system was abused at both trials of John D. Lee. The first trial was simply a power play by those greedy to control the Utah Territory. A pardon had been issued for actions taken during the “Utah War,” but they wanted to use the ugly facts of the massacre to bring down Brigham Young and the Mormon Church, and then step into the resulting power vacuum. When John D. Lee would not save his own life by implicating Brigham Young, they used Lee’s trial to point the finger at Brigham Young and the Mormon Church in the national press. The plan did not succeed, because the facts did not match the theory. The second trial was not much better. The prosecution had to deliver at least some token satisfaction of society’s demands for justice. Mormon witnesses were needed to make any case, but the prosecution had squandered its power, legitimacy, and moral authority at the first trial. By many accounts, an arrangement was made whereby all the blame would be put on Lee, and his execution was to end the matter. That plan did not succeed either, because once again, the government’s case did not match all the facts. In both trials, the prosecution was not seeking to develop the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The bad results are evident in the different burdens born by the LDS Church, the emigrant families and the Lee family to this day. Many complain that the LDS church has never apologized for the massacre. Unlike many Protestant churches, the LDS church is a corporation, highly organized and run from the top down with delegation of authority to local units. Church leaders are appointed, not elected. Church policy comes from above and is ratified by the membership. In Mormon eyes, there is a very clear distinction between the church itself and the members of the church. Further, while the church was and is potent in Utah, it was not the only authority. A civil government also functioned in Utah at the time of the massacre. Brigham Young was both governor and prophet. Local church leaders also held positions of command in the territorial militia. Gordon B. Hinckley, as president of the church said at the dedication of the new monument that he sat in the same chair as Brigham Young and was confident that Brigham Young did not want the massacre to happen. He said that the building of the monument should never be taken as an admission of complicity in the massacre by the Church. In my opinion, the church will never apologize for massacre because it believes that the church did no wrong. However, when President Hinckley spoke at the memorial service in Cedar City on September 15, 1990, he said, “In contrast to those who have preceded me, I come not as a descendant of any of the parties involved at Mountain Meadows. I come as a representative of an entire people who have suffered much over what occurred there.” He went on to say, “Now if there is need of forgiveness, we ask that it may be granted,” and prayed “Please forgive our trespasses as we forgive one another.” I believe that these two statements, read together are an acknowledgement by the church that the Mormon people did wrong at the Mountain Meadows. The church knows this, accepts it, and regrets it, though some of the Mormon people cling to a comforting fantasy that a renegade named John D. Lee is solely responsible. I recognize that people will make what they want of the statue. If it is finally erected, I hope that descendants of the emigrants will recognize that a statue of John D. Lee is not an insult to the memory of their ancestors, but a form of acknowledgment by one Mormon community that John D. Lee does not carry the entire blame. Some of the Mormon people are still not comfortable with the idea, but allowing a statue of Lee is an acknowledgement by some Mormon people that the Mormon people did wrong at Mountain Meadows. Such an acknowledgement is progress. We should welcome it and hope for a better understanding of the whole truth in the future.
106 Ivy Circle Helena, AR. 72342
I am joyful that the Mormon church has had to, unwillingly I'm sure, admit their guilt in this tradegy. Even so, no Mormons are ever told about this part of their history. When they find out, in spite of the church, excuses are made for the murderers. They, the Mormons, are good at making excuses, denials, ect. To be sure, they are a rich and powerful cult.
I am taking a college course this summer and anticipate using this web site and links from it to find out more about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
My sister and I found our father (Joe Huff) living in Everton, Arkansas 9 years ago and just now got the opportunity to meet him. He and my mother divorced 46 years ago when I was two. He took us to the memorial in Harrison Square and told us the story of the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I believe he said Peter Huff was his Great Grandfather's brother. I found your website to be very helpful in supplying additional information, which I printed and will be sending to my father. Thank you.
I had ancestors that were living in Mt. Carmel the time of the Massacre. Any lists of people invovled?
I am the great-great-great-grandneice of Charles Roark Mitchell and Joel Dyer Mitchell who were killed during the massacre. I have recently been researching my family's genealogy. This site was very interesting and informative. Thank you!!!
I'm now one year short of turning 80. As far back as I can remember, I was told by my father and various others of his 13 brothers and sisters, that their Grandfather, Robert Wood... (my Great Grandfather)... was invloved in the Mountain Meadows Massacre in southern Utah. The story told me was as follows: He was scalped and left for dead...but he recovered and was nursed back to health by a Mormon Family who recognized him ....or by friendly indians. The experience left him "Crazy" the rest of his life. He died in 1899. In 1846 he was a yound Doctor living in Council Bluffs. When the Mormons left their winter camp he had joined them leaving his wife and 2 small sons. His adventures took him to southern Utah and possibly, I surmise, in contact with the Fancher Wagon Train in his capacity as a doctor as the train passed through the area. My supposition is that he was with the Fancher train at the time of the attack. After his long partial recovery ... and 25 years after originally leaving Council Bluffs... he returns home, knocks on the door and as the door opens he says "Mother, I'm home!" Elizabeth Ann, his wife, recognizing him dropped dead on the spot from shock. She had remarried Milo Slythe and had a son with him in the intervening years. Needless to say, a most interesting story. On and off for over 20-25 years, I have done researching on MMM ...and various caravans from Council Bluffs to SLC but have found no definite confirmation or connection of these family stories told to me. Nonetheless, I've put the basic facts, related to me, together with my own fictional thoughts and plan now to finish a previously outlined histoical fictionized novel on these events. Any thoughts, further assistance or contributions would be welcome and much appreciated.
A tragedy that dide not have to happen.
I am the great great grandaughter of John D Lee from Lavina always heard of the mountain meadow but never knew the full extent of it will always believe Brigham Young set him up to take the fall for the rest who got away with murder...
You can't know how ashamed I am to be related to a person that I feel in my heart was indirectly, or perhaps directly, involved in this incident. I cannot forgive what was done to these victims nor will I ever forget. Very few events have affected my life the way that this one has. Sincerely...
You can't know how ashamed I am to be related to a person that I feel in my heart was indirectly, or perhaps directly, involved in this incident. I cannot forgive what was done to these victims nor will I ever forget. Very few events have affected my life the way that this one has. Sincerely...
This was truly a heinous crime and the victims will always be remembered thanks to your group. By the way, "Church History in the Fullness of Times", the official LDS Institute church history book (1989) includes the Mountain Meadows Massacre, pp. 371-373. It is not the closely-guarded LDS secret that some have suggested here. (It seems to me that more LDS watch TV than read church history books?)Thanks!
I've just recently discovered (I'am sorry to say) that I'am a decendant of John Doyle Lee through Sara caroline Williams. I've just read a book called "under the banner of heaven" and I wanted to vomit. I understand now why my family has kept a secret from me. I would appreciate any comments or contacts
I was doing some research on a photograph that I inherited (among others) and found the photograph to be of John D. Lee laying in his coffin. I found the "identical" picture in the book titled "Tales the Western Tombstones Tell". To date, I have no idea why this photo would be obtained..we have no connection to any of the families involved or even the State/County which it occurred. My condolenses however go out to each and every one of the individuals that were killed and their descendents. It was an event that shouldn't have happened. I don't know what I will do with the photograph but I wanted to leave this condolense message in the guest book. It sounds like a wonderful job is being done in order to remember the deceased, keep up the good work! They all deserve to be remembered!
My father lives in St. George, UT and recently took me to the meadow. I am not only deeply disturbed by what occurred there in 1857, but that the land is still in the hands of the LDS. Is there anything we can do to correct that? Can't the federal gov't make it a national monument? They certainly didn't do the proper thing after the massacre.
I LOVE THIE SITE.
I am Jerry Manton Hobbs, Great Grandson of Sarah Frances Baker Mitchell, 1854-1947, passed away in August of 1947 Muskogee Oklahoma, Last living survivor of Mountain Meadows Massacre 1857. Have pictures of grave site showing Plaque by Historical Scty.
With all of my heart and soul I can only ask God for the forgiveness for the part my family had in this nightmare.
With all of my heart and soul I can only ask God for the forgiveness for the part my family had in this nightmare.
With all of my heart and soul I can only ask God for the forgiveness for the part my family had in this nightmare.
Great Site! Peace at last Keep up the good work! All the best from the Attractant Pheromones Team at: http://www.attractant.co.uk <a href="http://www.attractant.co.uk">www.attractant.co.uk</a>
I want to know why Juanita Brooks burned the evidence of her books, or if that's true, why would anyone burn the evidence? I want to know the truth about the whole thing, and the books most accurate to relate the actual events.
I'M JUST SAYING HI TO SEE IF IM KIN TO ANY ONE IN HERE
Just finished Sally Denton's "American Massacre" and am still in shock over what I read. Treachery and merciless cruelty beyond belief with the perpetrators acting in the name of their religion! I can only imagine the sheer terror that the victims must have experienced. There will be no closure to this horrible event until the TRUTH of Brigham Young's involvement is completely uncovered--and that will require the full and honest cooperation of the LDS church--NO COVER-UPS. The events of 9/11/1857 and 9/11/2001 should serve as reminders AGAIN of what can happen when religious fundamentalism is taken to extremes. I plan to visit the Mountain Meadows site soon to pay my respects to those innocents who died in such terrible fashion.
This is a good site, very touching.
I found your summary of names quite interesting. I have heard about this massacre for the past several years and also that some of my ancestors were victims, but this is the first of any detailed list I have seen. Thanks for doing this.
For more than twenty years I have attempted to prove or disprove my grandfather's story of one of his uncles and family being with the doomed wagon train from northern Arkansas. Many facts of his Murray family parallel the those of the Baker-Fancher party. I was touched by the photos of the new memorial. I appreciate the spirit of forgiveness and agree that only the truth is good enough for those who died at Mountain Meadows.
Husband Jack Lee, II is gg grandson of John D.Lee and wife Rachel. Looking for family members. Please contact. Especially interested in family reunion.
I just finished reading'American Massacre' by Sally Denton. What an awful tragedy! I can't believe this happened on American soil and was so 'covered' up in our history. I am an Arizona 4th generation native with many Moromns in my extended family. (Although my immediate family is not Mormon) Most Monmons don't even know this ever happened! God Bless You!
My Great Grandmother was Mariah Baker Martin daughter of John T. Baker (Killed in the MMM). I am anxious to contact Celese Peters who left a message in November.
I like your site it is informative. Yet extremely respectful. Whatever is said about Mountain meadows no one can argue that it was a tragady Grace Bergman Middlesbrough Englan
I have read everything that I could about the massacre. I work with a direct decendant, Cheri Baker Walker, and through her I have learned a lot. The 1850's were a bad time on both sides and only through truth will there be a true healing. By understanding and courage on all sides and by standing up to the truth of what happened will there be a resting of the anger, betrayal, and pain. Darlene Brooner
I have read everything that I could about the massacre. I work with a direct decendant, Cheri Baker Walker, and through her I have learned a lot. The 1850's were a bad time on both sides and only through truth will there be a true healing. By understanding and courage on all sides and by standing up to the truth of what happened will ther be a resting og the anger, betrayal, and pain. Darlene Brooner
I have been a student of the MMM for a number of years, trying to understand the perspective from both sides. "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal
Now, I've read tons of these comments and I learned alot... My great great great Grandfather which was adopted by Brigham Young, Lead with his father on one of the sides of the M.M.M my g.g.g.g grandfather was the one leading it and John (my ggg grandfather) took the blame for it and said he was the leader and was hung to death. I have a very interesting family backround if anybody else is related to John D. Lee let my know.
We are in the process of researching the family tree.
